Is it OK to have a career rant here?

[ItsGotBellsOn]

Just perusing the dreaded FB and noticed an ex colleague of mine (male) has posted up pics of the latest high profile conference he is chairing. We are both late thirties now and worked together 10-15 years ago.

It got me thinking (not for the first time) about how amazingly well all the men I worked with in my twenties have done. Every single guy I worked with at that particular workplace - whether bright and talented or not, whether good people or not - have carved really, really impressive, exciting, creative, lucrative careers for themselves. Very, very few of the women - even the brightest and best of us - have.

I just feel so fucking depressed about it. Yes, it is a bit of self pity. I fucked a glittering career in the media by having a child in my twenties. But there is also a sense of rage. All of those bloody brilliant women have just one by one dropped off the radar, are no longer trailblazing in that sector, are no longer visible in the public world. It just feels so wrong.

I'm military and I've noticed this too - as I've come to a senior rank the number of women drop off alarmingly; I had children at 27 & 30 and have done well despite that, but now I'm tired.

I'm tired of having to 'willy wave', I'm tired of fighting back, I'm tired of every day being a challenge (the work is not exactly challenging, it's the men and their attitude towards women who have the temerity to think they're 'equal').

The men around me don't have to fight to be heard or taken seriously and I'm not interested in flying the flag for women any more.

I'm 40 in a few months, I have 2.5 years left until I qualify for immediate pension and I can't wait! (I have no clue what I will do when I leave and I don't care - I am just excited about a new path in life).

The worst thing about academics though is that they're all liberal so they are convinced they can't possibly be sexist.

Lol, I don't bark orders Buffy - I'm RAF (aircraft engineer).

Will probably end up waving my (huge!) willy as a lollipop lady when I leave!

50- something career woman here, empathising and with words of hope and encouragement. In my early 30s I too was driven to tears of resentment as I saw male friends and my own DH forging ahead as I treaded water, relocated with DH's career and tried hard to keep in the game with 2 small DC's, no work-permit, travelling DH, etc. Fast forward 2 decades, and I've been in interesting, fulfilling and very well-paid jobs for the last 15 years. Earn more than DH. I know that workplaces aren't fair, and I've seen enough subtle and overt discrimination, unconscious bias and just plain bad practice, but i still believe if you REALL? want it, you can have it. But it is hard work, involves other sacrifices and eating more than a few mouthfuls of shit. (Which btw I think men also have to eat). Some things I did: always worked, even when it was almost for nothing or very part-time; went on every course going; went back to do a Masters when kids were 2 and 4; kept networks alive; got an au pair when both kids were at school and until they were self-sufficient;in my late 30s took a pay cut to get into a new business with more opportunities but which involved lots of time away; did some good, open contracting with DH about balancing our late evenings home/business travel (not perfect of course, lots of trading and many arguments, but in the main it worked); got myself a good mentor at work; took some big risks (commuted to another country for 18 months); worked bloody hard to earn strong negotiating rights for when I needed flexibility.

I missed school plays, but not all of them, and probably other special childhood moments, but my DCs, now 20 and 22, are independent, well-adjusted kids, my DH and I are happy together after 30 years and the four of us get along great.

I don't want to sound smug, just that reading OP's post so reminded me of my own frustrations....please don't give up yet!!

I'm in a very female-dominated profession, very academic (but not academia), and yes, the very top spots are taken by men, but the big divide I see is between women who have children and women who don't. I had my 2 DC late (38 and 41), and before that, I was in early, stayed late, went to loads of conferences, volunteered for committees and projects, etc, and enjoyed it.

I'm now at quite a high level, and love my job, but I struggle to do it within my contracted hours. I no longer have the luxury of travelling whenever I want to, which has repercussions as I can't stay on top of my field, and I don't have time to volunteer for anything. My DH is hugely supportive so I travel more than other women with children at my level, but none of us can compare with the women who don't have children, and I see them moving away at an alarming pace. I just can't keep up, because I want to spend time with my family. It's frustrating and demoralising.

I like the phrase 'prioritising wellbeing over the fight'. I think I've just done that today - decided not to apply for a job I was being nudged towards, despite my current job being about to disappear, because I think doing it would make me and my family unhappy.

I think it's going to have a negative impact on my career, and I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Relieved that I won't be doing the job (which I think confirms that it was the right decision), but also wondering whether I've let the side down a bit.

I chair conferences all the time, wrote 30 books, fairly well known in my field etc. How did that happen? Know I'm good. Tell people I'm good. Do good work. Accept all the offers to go on TV, radio and that stuff.

I tried deliberately to put on a conference which has 100% women speakers this autumn. I put forward four women including me to speak at it. I am pleased we have ended up with 50% women at least. I would have been even happier had we had 100%. I will keep trying.

You have to be able to make the effort. That might mean a taxi at 5am to go on Radio 4 or leaving at 4am to catch an early flight. Those things are hard whether you are male or female. We tend to reap what we sow in life.

All keep telling people how brilliant you are and ask for more pay. Women don't do that enough. I notice at conference too far too many women saying they might be wrong or they think something rather than that they know it. You do need to observe yourself and work at it. You are the only person who will ultimately b e totally loyal to you and recognise all the hard work you have put in, no one else will. If someone has to rush home to see a child or clean the floors let that be your husband. Never tolerate for a day sexism in the home. This is the route to happiness plus a lot money and a good career.

Your charmed life is hardly indicative of how us mere mortals live Green, lovely though it must have been for you.

We're talking about real life experiences here. And normal people.

It annoys me, too. I have to put up with incompetent male managers, and I know I could be doing a better job (goes back to argument with director about "good enough is good enough" - but what counts as "good enough"?) I'm better qualified, too. Fighting for a promotion (don't really care about the grade, but I want recognition for what I do do and as they've published matrices for technical competencies at different grades, I am using it to make a point,) oh, it's so tiring. And if another bloody male tells me hierarchy is important when it mostly is because it protects their position... oh dear god, I'll need to restrain myself from decking him. I'm more interested in who has the information or the skills I need, not their rank. If that means I need to speak to someone more senior, I will (half the time I have no idea what people's ranks are anyway.)

Sheelagh Whittaker said, "I believe that we will only have true equality when we have as many incompetent women in positions of power as incompetent men." To be honest, I'd rather have competent people of both sexes, but I see where she's coming from. Why are so many capable women losing out to incompetent men?

I work for a multi national financial services company in the city. My career is effectively over. There is a rumour that when I go back to work after my second mat leave, I'll be reporting to a guy who used to work for me I guess his career kept moving whilst I sat at home having babies.

Gosh ItsGotsBellsOn! I had DC young and I have finally decided I need to up my anti at work to grow my career. All childcare is sorted and I need a role more mentally challenging. I am also very good at my job and I want to earn more money doing it. But bloody hell I thought parenthood was hard! I work for a recognisable brand and have overheard senior management conversation s where they are planning the workforce and have asked for single people only to be put forward. I am being made to jump through hoops for a promotion but seeing 'freer' people being given it. The frustrating thing is all the senior male management have several children and it hasn't affected their career. Thinking about it I only know 1 woman in senior management who has a DD. I could rant for ages about this as I am really feeling the glass ceiling at the moment!!!!

Ah, a subject close to my heart! I have despaired and despaired over my career, and I think I finally have a chance to get into the SMT ranks - its a shame that I know my mere glimmer of an opportunity is due to 2 men who have taken a professional shine to me. Regardless, I am grabbing that opportunity with both hands and mentoring the (nice) women along the way .

I feel the same, I'm academia too. I'm just so tired - two toddlers, a messy flat, full time work. And I have an easy job, 40 days leave (I take hem all) and massive flexibility, and a DH who genuinely does do 50%.

I've been seriosuly considering dropping out to do publishing from home but tunip's post has brought me up short. I've been thinking about it all night. And his morning on the bus I've started reading Playing Big - which I already am enjoying very much.

I think ill hang in a little bit longer

What a brilliant thread. I am so touched and inspired by all the incredibly expressive analysis on it from you all. to you all

I love the vocab this thread has given me to understand the things I was feeling

" 'I coulda been a contender' syndrome" - yes that's painful, really painful, good to name it

"being chased by a lion but everything will be OK as long as you're faster than at least one of your colleagues."

Brilliant expression for this dynamic. The more I think about the lion chase, the more it explains everything.
There are those whom they support, who support you back, who provide a mid-level pack that protects its colleagues; and there is value in tripping up an individual for the lion. Hmmmm how would that individual be chosen?

Tons of other good stuff on this thread.
I love you all

Scarlett - that's really interesting. I'm in the Navy, currently in a command role, and I'd say that I see almost no willy-waving or sexism around senior management here. I was surprised by the amount of gender equality that I encountered, especially relative to the experience of my friends in other professions. There is a higher drop-out rate of women than men and fewer at senior level, but when we're only 10% of the workforce to start with, and we've only been allowed to compete for jobs on equal terms since the early 1990s, I'd say we were doing pretty well. The pull-through rate of women to sea command appointments has been exactly in line with the expected timescales from when we were allowed to go to sea. I find in many contexts that being a female can be advantageous - people tend to remember me and my voice sounds different around a conference table and therefore stands out, and I seem to get listened to. Sad to hear that it's so different rfom your experience in the RAF.

I've just found the glass ceiling too .

I've also found how much more difficult my career is with children and a husband who works shifts. Not only do I have to work around my work and my children I have to work around his working patterns too. Because of course, I am the one picking up the slack (although he did come home from work yesterday because youngest had hurt himself at nursery and they couldn't get hold of me!). I'm thinking more of late nights, residential courses when he's working nights or gets delayed at work (he works in the emergency services - its hard to argue against it). And even though I earn more (even part-time), I have still ended being the one compromising because of the nature of His. Very. Important. Work. and the lack of flexibility in his workplace. The fact that it is important work only seems to make it more frustrating.

But obviously it was my choice to have children. I should have thought about it before . The fact that men don't have to think about it or seem to have to make these choices makes it more insulting

I remember reading a thread ages ago from a bloke who was complaining his ex had taken a new job. That meant he had to change when he looked after his own child and it was compromising his work e.g. he couldn't go on a training course. So the fact that women have to do this every day because of childcare responsibilities and his ex had probably already been doing this completely passed him by.

If you earn 10x what your husband does as I did it tends not to be his work which is seen as very important.

If you take a lot of time away from work whether you are male or female as you are not there you tend not to do as well. We all know this and make our choices accordingly. The babies don't need you at home for long periods but you might want that as might their father. Choices those rich enough to manage on more than 6 weeks at 90% pay are lucky enough to have.

I think you're minimizing, Greengrow. Most people commenting on here haven't taken long career breaks. What most PPs have noted is that they are struggling to get recognition for their abilities despite being just as capable, or more so, than the men they work with and they are seeing mediocre men being promoted and reaching career highs while perfectly able women flounder.

This matches my experience too. I am amazed at the progress some of my male network have made in their careers compared to my female peers. I won't deny that there is some element of choice as some women have taken career breaks or deliberately chosen 'mommy track' jobs but it's not the whole story. Often the element of 'choice' is illusory. Women are really just compromising while their husbands or male peers do not. It is very difficult for both partners in a marriage to pursue a full-on career at the same time, even without children.

There are just different standards for women and it is frustrating to hit full-force against this in your career when you get to the age, typically early-30s, when your opportunities should be expanding but instead they just diminish. I feel the same frustration as you ItsGotBellsOn when I look around me at peers.

Indeed. I encourage women all the time. I go out of my way to ask them to speak at things or write articles for me and more men than women volunteer for that kind of thing sadly. I shall keep up my efforts to help other women.

I don't earn 10x his salary. And even if I did it wouldn't mean his work wasn't valuable, just as it wouldn't mean the work a woman does who earns much less than her partner, is lacking value. A lets face it, women's work, no matter what it is, is generally considered less valuable.

And who said I took a lot of time away from work? (mind you that hasn't stopped certain other men in my workplace). It really isn't a simple as that.

Keep the rage coming. It's how we'll win.
I think what's insidious is the chance and sheer number of women who go part time and ease off. You look around and think 'why not?' Why not go part time, scale back, make it all easier and more manageable.
It's threads like this that make me stop and think no, fuck it, I can do this. But it's hard. The fact that the option to drop back is there for women, in a way it isn't for men is what drives so many to do it.
No man even thinks, 'maybe I could go part time' yet it's there screaming at me as an attractive idea every day.

This thread is for me. I am reasonably senior but I can see that I am at the stalling stage. The workplace is designed for men by men. I only took 3 months of maternity leave so it is not as if I even left for a long time. My big issue is why in God's name are so many things held after hours? So even though I work full time, do a fair share of travelling, am still expected to devote significant time in the evenings to meetings which should form part of the working hours, which are of course arranged by men who do not have to worry about childcare.

In the little sphere of the work world I influence, I make sure there are no after hours meetings. If it is important, have it during the working day. These are the subtle things that mark women out as not being team players