Thinking about my daughter - schooling choice

[UsinedeGlue]

Hi

I don't want to drip feed but as a broad overview, do you feel that an all girls school is more or less likely to help develop a very clear sense of equality compared to a co-ed? My DD is 9.

DD has an excellent role model in her mother, in that she has a 'big' job, whilst I am a SAHD. But I feel the school have an important role to play too.

My DS is a a couple of years older, incredibly confident, funny, and one of those 'life & soul of the party' types (despite his age!), which can have the effect of overshadowing DD sometimes.

Thoughts?

"IMO being educated alongside boys guarantees you will think they are no better than you."

I'm glad this was your experience but I don't think it's universal or can be guaranteed, unfortunately.

Trills, all schools do that though - split the class into boys and girls, have boys dominating one area of the playground for football etc.

I agree with Maryz's comments about the "civilising influence" of girls - but in reality if I believed that to be true I might take the hypocritical route myself (if I thought that it was good for boys to be with girls but better for girls to not be anywhere near boys).

Thankfully I think it's bollocks. I think that both sexes gain (and have difficulties) from being around the other and I think both have benefits and difficulties if they are only with their own group.

As someone sent to an all girls school I am 100% convinced that I don't want any of my DDs to go to one - unless they really want to. I do think that a child's views are important to consider here.
One bad experience shouldn't write off all single sex education of course, but the girls I was at school with didn't get to develop 'normal' relationships with boys, and those social skills are an important part of what we learn to get along with each other in life. I'm interested in the correlation between the feminist views of posters who went to single sex schools and its causation - my parents sent me to a girls school because they had read up on outcomes for girls and were aspirational for us. I would imagine that parental views and aspirations, and the home environment would play a significant part in the developing views of feminism.

It depends on your dd as an individual and on the school. I went to a girls school where I was taught that I should become a wife and mother, it was OK to have a job but not a career and to not have children - well I'm sure the nuns are still praying for me to have them.

I know people who had a fabulous time at gitl' schools at about the same time.

It is irrelevant whether your child is a boy or girl, sporty or not, gifted at maths or not etc.

What is relevant is 'will this school be the best place for my child to learn and be happy?'

If I had the money I'd 100% send my dd to an all girl's school. There are no "boys courses" like in a co-ed school.

My school did not have any woodwork or metalwork facilities, until the national curriculum came in there was no technology taught. We did maths and physics, but then in VI form found out the maths syllabus we had followed was a better foundation for maths with stats rather than maths with mechanics, which was the maths you needed for A level physics - I think this might have changed with GCSEs.

We had cookery all year (well domestic science, mainly cooking with some learning how to make a bed and starch a shirt) but 1/2 year needlework and 1/2 year art.

No there are no subjects seen as 'boys' subjects, but a girls' school might just not teach 'boys' subjects at all.

I went to a mixed primary and an all girls secondary. I did maths and science A Levels - I was the only one doing further maths, so had one-to-one teaching which was great if a little intense! I definitely left school with the feeling I could do anything that a boy could do (career wide),

Sorry posted too soon. That should be career wise, although I credit my parents (both of them) for this as much as or more than the school.

Maryz, I think that the reason why some parents are happy for their DSs to attend a mixed school but prefer single sex for their DDs is that it has been shown that a teacher in a mixed class will spend more of his or her time and attention on the boys. So they don't want their DDs to suffer from this but it doesn't apply to their DSs. Nothing to do with girls 'being a good influence' on boys.

I think you need to go in and get a feel for the schools, read up on results and philosophies then work out where your child would be happiest. Sometimes the pomposity of the blurb on a school website tells you all you need to know.

I went to a single sex high school, and definitely intend to send DD to one, also. Having said that, they're the norm here, so it's more inevitable than anything.* DH went to a co-ed, but agrees that single sex is the way forward, based on my anecdotes.

Five years out of one's entire life - to concentrate on being educated in a way that potentially affects the rest of your life - doesn't teach you that men and women are different, any more than being a women imparts you with the knowledge that, socially, men and and women have different experiences. And a single-sex education counteracts these in a positive way.

In all honesty, I think being educated with boys as a teen, actively shows you how different men and women are and can be.

My particular school didn't bring out the best in me academically at all (it took university for that to happen). But the experience of learning (for all of 5 years) without the often overpowering presence of males, was formative for me.

I really appreciated it. My friends say the same thing.

I also cut my feminist teeth at school, I think. I don't remember a time not identifying as a feminist.

• This is NZ, which has fairly feminist, liberal leanings - first country to give women the vote, one of the first to legalise gay marriage. Had a woman PM, leader of the opposition, head of the judiciary, and Governor General all at the same time at one point. We're also very secular (and by default, separate education from religion, though you can choose a religious education if you so wish), with a tendency to view misogynist organised religion with a healthy dose of scepticism. And our high schools are predominantly single sex. Make of that what you will.

The boys at my school weren't "over powering", we didn't "civilise" them.

They were just pupils like us and if anything it was the boys who were a good influence on the girls, they were fun, most of them didn't take life or friendships too seriously, they improved the atmosphere enormously. The one who did take work too seriously taught us things too and I hope we did our best to help him.

DH went to a boys Grammar and did very well, but he's very glad they went comprehensive and he ended up at a mixed Sixth form collage.

To be educated with only 1/2 your peers means you miss a chunk of education about life.

And no not all single sex pupils socialise with the opposite sex outside school. I don't think DDs DFs see many boys at ballet and rangers.

My understanding is that research has shown that girls are more likely to study maths and science in a single sex school. Though I have also heard a commentator say that research shows in single sex schools, whether boys or girls, the pupils are more likely to be unpleasant to each other.
I knew a lot of people at uni in first year who had been to very elite single sex schools ( think Eton, st Mary's Ascot) and I did think that interacted quite oddly with the opposite sex, but I guess that would change once they got used to a 24/7 mixed sex environment.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-13888660

I think people commenting on the "bitchyness" of girls as though it is the worst thing possible are missing the above fact. 1 out of three girls are sexually harassed at school.

Also I think many of you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who went to school before hardcore porn was being sent around by all your peers on your phone. Things are different now.

Also

The amount of women entering STEM careers hasn't changed in 15 years. Surely in a world where women are gaining more rights that number would increase every year unless there were other influences stopping girls from entering those careers? Unless girls are just too stupid?

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/29/girls-low-self-esteem-rising-girlguiding-report

I agree with you fuckoffferrett. I went to two mixed school and there was bitchiness those too. The boys could be very unpleasant too. That wasn't labelled bitchiness though. My friend was nick named "ugly" at school (she's not) by a boy who was no oil painting.

I was sexually harassed too. I had a gang of boys put snowballs down my top once. I fought like mad to escape it but they still got their hands down my top. Then they listed off other flat chested girls they'd thought about treating to this 'treat' as though I ought to be flattered. I was angry but I just got up and walked off......... it wasn't unusual. I also had a boy (now a man who smiles and chats to me when he sees me) 'knee' me in the thigh and my leg went into a spasm. I was limping for days.

So yes, you make a good point, a bit of bitchiness from other girls is not necessarily going to be worse or harder than what's dished up at a mixed school.

Chucky, to be fair the interaction between boys and girls at a mixed school is not always normal.

Curious about your comments, JapaneseMargaret that single sex education is the norm in NZ.

Traditionally high schools were single sex but all intermediates and indeed most high schools are now co-ed. Wherever you live there will be a co-ed high school available.

Single sex schools are still around, some of the posh boys' ones now open to girls in the later years so this is changing also.

And I am unsure as to why you equate religion in schools with misogyny. My dd attends a Catholic girls' school which is regularly placed in the country's top 5. It was founded on Mercy values and the thread of social justice and empowerment of young women is evident in all their teachings. Not a shred of misogyny in evidence.

a girls' school might just not teach 'boys' subjects at all.
But it might. I did woodwork and metal work - only for a term, but then I only did a term each of cookery and needlework.

I went to a girls' school - I was 20 before I discovered that some people thought girls weren't good at science. It was just not a point of view expressed by anyone at my school or anyone in my family.

Most of my friends from school are very successful and we are all very independent and assertive women.

I went to a mixed junior school, all-girls 11-16 and then a boys school which took girls for the 6th form.

It was a long time ago, and I didn't want to go to an all-girls school at 11 as I had been very happy chasing around with the boys in the playground, but I am so glad I did. I felt those years spent without boys in the classroom allowed me to focus on who I was and what I liked doing without any distractions. I had no sense at all of what girls were or weren't supposed to like or be.

When I went to 6th form I found that I had to spend a lot of time pretending not to be clever, as boys didn't like being beaten by a girl. And suddenly there was a massive focus on looks and being pretty, which just hadn't featured before. I was always a good swimmer and swam a lot at my girls' school - I stopped as soon as I got to the 6th form as the spectators' gallery at the pool was always packed with boys who were allowed to come along and watch.

Socially I was fine at both, and even when at an all girls school I did socialise with boys outside school. I now have good friends of both sexes, so don't feel I suffered socially.

I definitely feel that there is a huge benefit to girls in single sex education. Academically there have been lots of studies to back this up - and there was recently something in the papers about the higher level of achievement in maths and sciences in all girls school (sorry didn't follow links above and can't be bothered to google right now...)

Anyway, I had to make the (fortunate) choice for DD recently between a good mixed and a good single sex secondary school. I chose the all girls school because she's good at maths and is likely to be good at science; because I think (like me) she would be easily distracted by wanting to be cool and be in with the boys, because I think she will do more sport there, and be able to get a strong sense of who she is.

Of course, not everyone will have the same experience but I found it really positive and, although it's early days, she seems very happy too.

I didn't let her choose - although I did listen to her opinions - as I didn't believe she could possibly know what she was choosing. She could only base her opinion on her own experience (of mixed school) and so couldn't possibly understand what she might have to gain from a different environment. She was happy at her primary school, so naturally she would choose to replicate that.

In fact her own preference was entirely dictated by wanting to go to the same school as her best friend - although she did also like the school I chose, and understood why I wasn't choosing the best friend's school (which actually wasn't even on our short-list).

Most of the best schools in the country are single sex which says all you need to know. My daughter was at North London Collegiate and I feel it really did her so very much good.

I believe all 5 children of both sexes have benefited from single sex schooling right throughout too.

I like the high school system here in the States, where each school board area has graduation requirements in each of its high school, which ALL students must meet to graduate. The requirements usually include four years/credits of English (i.e. it is compulsory each year of high school), four of history/social sciences, three of science (one year each of biology, chemistry and physics) and three of maths. Four years in science and maths is encouraged for those applying to college. Then there are always a minimum number of years/credits in languages and arts, and sometimes even technology courses.

In DS1's high school they do four credits (a credit = one year, half a credit = semester) of English, history/social science and world languages, three of science and maths, and one-and-half of technology and arts (visual or performing). One credit of tech must be in the same discipline (i.e. electronics) and the same for art (i.e. ceramics).

They then have six credits of electives, although two of them are structured, and have to be used to take science or maths courses. Most students take one more year in each, but some choose to take two more maths courses, or two more in science. Students are also "actively encouraged" to take at least one further semester in each of technology and the arts.

Anyway, I love the fact that when the time comes for our daughters to attend the school (they're very young, but we have no plans on moving), they will have to engage with STEM subjects. There won't be any option of them possibly being put off from taking them, as they are seen by some as 'boy subjects' as they have to take them. And of course, to even things up, I'm glad that our sons will have to take the arts/humanities subjects that are often seen as 'girl subjects'.

For technology this semester, DS1 is doing the first course in the electronics sequence, and he says half of the students in his class are girls. I find that really encouraging.

I'm happy we've opted for co-ed education over here, not least as it is saving us the expense of school fees, as the public (state) schools in our area are excellent. To be honest though, single sex education was never an option here, as the only single sex schools within a suitable travel distance are Catholic and there is no way that was ever going to happen!

tread - I don't equate religion in schools with misogyny; I am equating organised religion with misogyny. I'm not singling Catholicism out - all organised religions have long and inglorious histories of subjugating women. It sounds like your DD goes to a great school. But it's still a celibate man at the head of the church.

I said single sex (high) schools were the norm, but of course yes, you're right, there are co-ed schools. It's just that when it comes to high school, it's mostly single sex. Most cities/towns (even suburbs) have a state XXX Girls' High School and a XXX Boys' High School. And pretty much all the religious high schools are single sex.

Sorry JapaneseMargaret but you are wrong. Single sex secondary education is not the norm in NZ.

Most recent statistics record 782,000 stidents enrolled in secondary education with the vast majority, 668 000, in co-ed schools. (Ministry Ed stats)

Thank you for clarifying your position on religion and misogyny.

As for the Pope, seems to me he is somewhat more of a role model than the state's! Sheesh, the current Prime Minister sends his children to the most exclusive private school in the country. Tells you all you need to know about his faith in state schools. But that is another thread haha.