Egalitarianism or feminism - what's the difference? And does it matter?

[Monkeytrousers101]

Many women, especially young women, don't identify as feminists today but as egalitarians. They believe in equality of the sexes and human rights. So does the distinction matter?

Why the half formed smiley wink with no nose? You know how to do one, right?

Flora now that us a really good notion. One that I fully agree with on a lot of subject.
But if we apply it to the men/women issue, does it mean that we consider that women are 'weaker' or 'smaller' and therefore need more 'support' than men to that the system is fair?
Or does it mean that, at the moment, because if societal construct, it is the case but it won't be the case in the future once the playing field has been levelled?

Thanks Pots. I agree with Buffy that we don't know what a level playing field would look like. There are some physical differences between women and men that affect how we participate in society - e.g. physically delivering babies and BF'ing. There are also physical manifestations of patriarchy such as violence against women and sexual violence. To address these, we need to institute justice and not just formal equality. Getting bogged down in formal equality can hamper justice (e.g. calls for anonymity for men accused of rape because that would be "equality" with anonymity for victims of rape).

Yes, I am discounting women's lived experiences as falsifiable evidence. It's evidence but anecdotal."

Meh. Fuck off.

When I started lurking on here ( a couple of years ago) I called myself an egalitarian, a label DD1 gives herself now. Well, mostly she does. She'll state that feminism has 'gone too far.' Then a couple of days later complain about how a man or men treat her and her toddler daughter, at which point I remind her that feminism is a Good Thing. The wise women in the FWR section, especially my fellow pub regulars, have changed my mind loads of times based on their lived experience, so now I describe myself as a feminist ally.

DD2 is shaping up to be a proper radfem and I couldn't be happier. Whenever she posts an expletive filled feminist rant on her Facebook I beam with pride and think "that's my girl".

FWR is probably my favourite section on this site as it's helped my education so much. I know it's not your job, but you've been so patient with men like me. We should all be grateful. .

I'm finding that idea a difficult one.
In the example if anonymity, I don't think this being equal because being accused and being the victim are two different things. It would be equal if someone accused of sexual assault was/was not granted anonymity regardless if their gender. Same with the victims (there are actually quite a few men who are sexually assaulted but very few who will report it).

I used to work in a very make dominated environment. I was told by a recruitment agency that I should apply to X company as they used 'positive discrimination fir women and disabled people' so I was more or less sure to get the job. I have to say I was more than uncomfortable with the idea. If I am selected for a job, I want it to be on my ability to do it, not because I'm a woman!

On the other side, there was a case recently about a woman charged with sexual assault. She got a heavier sentence than most men would get in a similar case why, why, why??? Does it mean we need two rules there to make it fair?

If I am selected for a job, I want it to be on my ability to do it, not because I'm a woman!

I wish men felt the same way.

Last random thought.

I wish sometimes women would grab the box say next to them instead if waiting for someone to give it to them.
So many times you see women waiting and expecting men to change whilst not doing a thing themselves.
Eg taking space in a train. A lot if women will moan at the man sat next to them because he us taking too much space whilst making themselves as small as possible. Why not taking the space right from the start? Why making yourself small when no one is next to you in the first place? Why not making it clear that you are of as much value?

what do you think happens to women who "grab the box"?

"I used to work in a very make dominated environment. I was told by a recruitment agency that I should apply to X company as they used 'positive discrimination fir women and disabled people' so I was more or less sure to get the job."

Since positive discrimination is, in all material senses, illegal in the UK, I think the agency was just trying to build your confidence.

Also, do you know who gets daily advantages from positive discrimination? (Clue: it isn't women). I don't hear them jumping up and down about not wanting to be discriminated in favour of.

On the train example, what if the women doesn't want to take up masses of space? What if she just wants to sit with her legs comfortably together and use one arm rest? Why should she have to aggressively take ground not to lose ground? Why it is unreasonable just to want your personal space respected without having to spread out for it?

But, on a broader point, women are judged differently to men for the same behaviours. In many ways. For example, if women talk the same amount of men in meetings they are routinely seen as cornering the conversation. If women ask for payrises, they are more frequently judged as unreasonable and greedy whereas men are just seen as chancing their arm. There are all sorts of studies out there I am sure you can find but I can't lay my hands on right now amidst family chaos.

The company stuff wasn't in the uk. Mi have seen that in France too done years ago when a president decided that positive discrimination was a good thing and that 50% of the ministers had to be women. There was plenty of discussion around that issue. Are they capable to do that job or are they there just because they are women? was a question coming back regularly.

Ah, the old chestnut of 'positive discrimination means that the best person for the job might not get it, because the best person for the job is always male'

Women who want to take up their own space are slapped back into their boxes. Sometimes in a very real sense, most often in a metaphorical one. Women who don't conform to societies ideas of how they should behave get the same.

What are you trying to say - that you don't agree with positive discrimination? I don't necessarily in general jobs ( though I think ministers, boards etc are a different case) but men nevertheless benefit from it daily.

of course it was

but women don't have equality of opportunity, nor are their achievements as recognised as those of men, so under the current system that means positive discrimination of men

Well, if you can't produce any evidence that it's evolution that means I should do the housework, then I don't see why I should produce any that it's nurture!

And since you quite rightly state that it makes no sense for men to be better mechanics, because cars didn't exist, it make similarly no sense for women to be naturally better house-keepers, as houses, hoovers etc. didn't exist. Therefore, it must be nurture no?

As to childcare - you are mixing up people who normally do it, historically, with whether they are better at it. Empirical evidence please that women are better childcarers (not just the default, but measurably better at raising children), or again, it can't be nature and therefore must be nurture.

Finally - I've lead a sheltered, geeky life, yet I don't have enough fingers to count the unwanted contact I've had from strange men in pubs, on the street, and even in the supermarket! Every woman of my acquaintance has had similar experiences. Perhaps we live in very different circles.

Women who want to take up their own space are slapped back into their boxes. Sometimes in a very real sense, most often in a metaphorical one. Women who don't conform to societies ideas of how they should behave get the same.

So true.

Plus, I don't often see men like George "Gideon" Osborne saying, oh, I really only want this job on "merit" not because I'm a male, white, rich, Old Etonian and 4th cousin to the Queen.

^ Obvs an extreme example - but the fact is that "all male" shortlists have existed for centuries, because those opportunities were never given to women. The Old Boys Network still exists, and opportunities still default to males. Women are still having to prove themselves in a way that men just don't.

Chunky - women's skill as mechanics magically improved during the world wars, you know. It's not even nurture.

Hmm. Interesting difference of pov.

I think I'm coming from a very different angle because of my own life experiences. Maybe this us because I'm not Brit (and u do agree that the British society us is particularly misoginist , not in a all in your face way, but all underneath some idea of an equally society)
Now I'm not sdyingbthsy where I'm coming from isn't patriarchal but at least good work us recognised regardless of the gender. You can speak up as a woman and people will listen. Maybe not as much as men but they will. So you have more women at the head of the state etc.

Maybe what you are all saying is what I'm slowly coming to realise after 17years!, amazing what you don't notice because it sounds so impossible/crazy.