On the back of Emma Watson's speech and #he4she

[DoctorTwo]

Iceland announce a UN conference on feminism. For men only. I'm utterly at a loss as to why.

Well, when you put it like that... ...I don't really have a position to defend.

I guess sometimes I think: "Actually my knee jerk reaction to this maybe wrong, maybe there is something sensible behind it." Plus the Icelandic history of equality had a bearing on questioning my initial reaction too.

Apologies for the choice of words, it wasn't my intention to create two sides. Although I suppose my defence of the conference (as potentially useful) compared to other posters... ...err... ...disapproval (?) did kind of create two sides. I guess that's the way debates evolve out of conversations. The beauty of discourse eh?!

BTW I'm not averse to "losing" arguments/debates if it becomes apparent that it's likely I'm wrong!

Thanks for the explanation of your position, I understand why you feel the way you do, and echo much of that, more so since this thread has progressed.

Thanks Buffy, you're right, my style of wriitng and engaging as typically male has been noticed and picked up on before on FWR. It's something I notice on occasion, and always put down to socialisation too. As you say it is a different way of engaging to that often found elsewhere.

Speaking of which, maybe this was an influencing factor behind the conference? I can just picture the 'focus groups' now!

None?

It is a hallmark, as you say, of marginalised groups not being invited to take part in decision making regarding them. Something I'm aware of professionally too. I think this is a big reason why it is so difficult to engage with these groups, it's been "the way it's been done" for so long that they have become disillusioned with any such event and the organisers will have a hell of job persuading them to attend, let alone engage. The communication and language used is another barrier to involvement.

Which takes us back to the socialisation of communication...

I don't know how comparable that is to this conference, but I'm sure there are parallels.

I keep coming back to the problem being men - male violence, abuse etc. and it being encumbent on men to tackle that. How to do that? Engage men and find out the best way of stopping them (us) behaving this way. It's almost as if Feminism has a role to play in highlighting the problems, but can't do much to sort out a solution without the men actually doing something about it and stopping behaving in this manner.

I've been trying to find a bit more detail about this to see if there's any intelligent attempt to explain the rationale for it being exclusively male other than something to do with barbershops, but I can't.

At best this appears to be a hamfisted and ill-thought-through attempt to Do The Right Thing like those exclusionary conferences that Buffy describes.

I don't have a problem with male-only spaces /per se/ but in the context in which it seems to have been announced ('A feminist conference') it's offensive, counterproductive and more of the same.

If it were however very consciously dealing with, say, the effects of male socialisation and the reinforcement of male violence then I could begin to see a justification for it.

cross posted with keepit

keepit - I think the closest I've seen to what you're talking about in recent years is the White Ribbon Campaign (which you're probably aware of):

www.whiteribboncampaign.co.uk

I know others might have their issues with it, but for me it's a genuine attempt at men owning the problem of violence and trying to begin the huge task of making it unacceptable among themselves - starting to counter aspects of lad-culture in a small but vital way.

Thanks Falafel, I have stumbled across the White Ribbon before and it's great at a grass roots level. I was kind of hoping this conference could be along those lines but at a higher level. My hope has all but disappeared now though.

Buffy - It's interesting you suggested stakeholders meet in a run down community centre, picking their way through needles and broken street lights, that's exactly what happened at one of the events I was involved in! Unfortunately they still ended up going back to their safe, suburban homes at the end of it.

Your last paragraph is the nub of it. It's also why I don't think men can really be Feminists, we don't understand, can't understand, and getting involved, except in a supporting role, is fraught with inconsistencies, power imbalances and lack of empathy. It's almost like there should be a paralell movement, like the White Ribbon!

I actually think MN and similar are a real opportunity for men to observe women-only spaces without collapsing their wave function interfering with them.

I think because women (NAW) listen when it say something like "It just seems really disrespectful" but for a man (NAM) to hear it I'd have to say "That is really disrespectful" - to communicate with DH (and others) I feel I have to rephrase to the latter; men observing us would see us all responding to each other under the former and maybe consider how they were hearing communications from women.

Not as sharp as your on the ground meetings but hopefully informative!

I was talking to DS about this conference earlier and his opinion was that it's a Good Thing. I asked him why and his reply that at least men are getting involved got short shrift. He now understands why a feminist conference which excludes women is utterly pointless. DD2 has had one of her famous Facebook rants, though this time with fewer swears, so if I post it the menz won't get offended at her language. :o

Keepit, I don't describe myself as a feminist but I am a feminist ally. I don't know much but I'm prepared to learn. We need to be involved for society to change, but any positions of power in a feminist movement must be held by women.

Reading posts on MN and other feminist sites, and talking to my daughters and their friends has opened my eyes to the lived experience of quite a few women and it's depressing that in 2014 society appears to be regressing. I think that's due, in part at least, to the ability to be anonymous behind a keyboard.

Always worth hearing about your DD, Doc!

Buffy, I think the White Ribbon Campaign is relatively new, but it seems to be growing. What I find encouraging about it is that it seems to be attempting to get outside of a bubble of politicised lefties (at least according to their website). The FAQ on their website seems pretty sensible, addressing areas of possible concern. It is, if nothing else, a start - and this discussion has got me thinking I ought to support them a bit more tangibly.

www.whiteribboncampaign.co.uk/FAQs

Doctor - I don't call myself a feminist either. My mum told me I wasn't allowed to when I was a kid so I tend to say I'm pro-feminist or a feminist ally. I do have a Fawcett Society t-shirt (This Is What a Feminist Looks Like) but I feel a bit uncomfortable wearing it for that and other reasons.

I've always had the anti porn men project down as good eggs in the feminist ally stuff, but it seems to have died :-(