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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brooks Newmark "Entrapment"

326 replies

FloraFox · 29/09/2014 08:15

There doesn't seem to be any suggestion "she" asked him to send her the photo, is there?

So simply being an attractive young woman and complimenting national politicians on twitter is "entrapping" men into sending photos of their genitals?

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YonicScrewdriver · 02/10/2014 13:25

"The substance of the disagreement between feminists here on this thread is the degree to which Newmark's behaviour crosses the line from unethical given his position to an abuse of that position, isn't it? And whether the journalist's own behaviour is a mitigating factor in all this."

Mistressfully summarised, Buffy.

DontDrinkAndFacebook · 02/10/2014 13:31

The feminist issue is males in positions of power relative to women assuming that they can probably get away with exploitation.

Yes.

Except he didn't exploit 'her' did he?

If he had targeted and groomed 'her', manipulated the relationship to arrive at a position where, having gained her trust and her respect, he then took advantage of that trust and respect to make sexual advances and overtures safe in the knowledge that she was too in awe of him to reject those advances, or at least to go public with allegations the inappropriate behaviour, then I would agree.

But as far as I can see, this did not happen. It's in your mind. It's what you would like him to have done, but it is not what he actually did.

A 'woman' targeted him, initiated some sort of dialogue of a sexual nature towards him, he responded. That was inappropriate and stupid, given his position, but he did not exploit 'her'.

BuffyBotRebooted · 02/10/2014 13:45

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PuffinsAreFicticious · 02/10/2014 14:29

I think everyone agrees that the journalist is a bad man for doing what he did ie using images of women, who hadn't consented to those images being used in that way.

No one disputes that that is a truly awful thing to do and constitutes bloody awful journalism The Sun take note

That in itself is a feminist issue, that a male journalist felt that some women's images and bodies were simply to be used as a tool in his 'story'.

The thing that people seem to be disagreeing with is whether or not BN would have done this if it had been a 'real' woman who contacted him, and whether or not that would still have caused the furore that the false images have.

The journalist was wrong.

BN was wrong.

This is a feminist issue.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 02/10/2014 14:31

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 02/10/2014 14:36

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PuffinsAreFicticious · 02/10/2014 15:04

I think, if you read Flora's (and I'm assuming your veiled reference was to Flora?) I think 3rd comment after that she does agree that what the journalist did was wrong, but for the right reasons.

This whole thread got mightily out of hand really quickly.

DontDrinkAndFacebook · 02/10/2014 15:20

Buffy It is irrelevant whether he knew that or not. That the 'she' was actually he is irrelevant. The fact is (it would appear, according to reports) that he did not initiate communications of a sexual content, someone else did. Several times.

He made a grave error of judgement in responding in the way he did; it was not befitting of his position in public office and for that he needed to go. But he did not exploit any person, male or female, nor did he abuse his position of power, or male white privilege. It was a mutually consensual exchange of sexually explicate material initiated by someone else, who happened to be a 'woman' and one could only loosely argue was possibly a 'subordinate' of sorts. (although as it turns out, neither.)

Newmark had a certain reputation among younger Tory women for being, for want of a better word, a bit of a creep. Think what his position gave him access to – ambitious, younger women.

Wow. So hang on,

Are you saying it's his fault (hypothetically) that he might have had access to ambitious young women prepared to sleep with an older, lecherous creep in order to attempt to advance their career? Confused

Or are you saying that these 'ambitous, younger women' working in politics for crying out loud, are sufficiently stupid and naive that they would not dare spurn the sexual advances of a senior colleague? Is this 1955? Confused

And if we turn that comment on its head, can we assume that if woman makes a formal complaint of sexual harrassment or inappropriate advances by a male colleague, we must first chat to her other male colleagues. If they say that she's a terrible flirt and a 'good time girl' who is renowned for flashing her stocking tops at the office Christmas party, then we should dismiss her claims and surmise that she has actively encouraged any sexual attention? Hmm

As for it being 'illustrative of the struggles women face when trying to network to further their careers' well I think it would be far more illustrative if we stuck to citing actual cases of men who have made unwelcome and unsolicited sexual overtures to women in the workplace, rather than using as our example someone who er…..hasn't. Hmm

I think PeckhamPearlz* has it bang on with this:

I wouldn't disagree with the idea that a senior politician (of any gender) should be ever mindful of the power imbalance between themselves and any junior colleague or supporter and always behave appropriately - regardless of how the junior person behaves.

But I seriously take issue with the attitude that this 'appallingly immoral journalism' (to borrow from Flora) is in any way justified by the assumption that Newmark was very probably sleazy anyway.

If Sophie Whittams had been a real woman and had approached Newmark to talk about this Women2win malarky and he had (eventually) moved on to "let's discuss it over a drink ... ooh the bar's very noisy ... let's go somewhere quieter" or other typical sleazeball behaviour, then I would say, yes, absolutely - 'hang' the bastard (HtB)

But on the tangible evidence we have so far, absolutely no women were involved in this entrapment, except the ones who were used as sex objects without their consent.

BuffyBotRebooted · 02/10/2014 15:23

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DontDrinkAndFacebook · 02/10/2014 15:26

Yes. I often do. Was it a private party then?

BuffyBotRebooted · 02/10/2014 15:28

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 02/10/2014 15:38

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DontDrinkAndFacebook · 02/10/2014 16:56

There are some threads, I feel, where there is such an over-eagerness and determination to 'find a feminist angle' and show that a crime against women has been committed by men, even when it patently hasn't, that is does sometimes put me in mind of a bunch of sixth form girls all vying to find something impressively intellectual to say to score points from the teacher.

It just smacks of clutching at straws sometimes, that's all.

DontDrinkAndFacebook · 02/10/2014 16:57

In fact there has been a crime against women committed here, but it was by the journalist posing as one, not by BN.

BuffyBotRebooted · 02/10/2014 17:29

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YonicScrewdriver · 02/10/2014 18:41

"are sufficiently stupid and naive that they would not dare spurn the sexual advances of a senior colleague"

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

If said senior colleague, whatever the sex of any of the parties, makes such an advance WITHOUT acknowledging, discussing or double checking the other party is completely comfortable, then that is bad professional and personal behaviour.

There shouldn't be any "spurning" required because, frankly, if you are in any position of power over anyone else, you should be damn careful to be the receptive rather than advancing party. You should be sure that you are both going to be ok with it at work. You need to talk about what is happening before it happens.

WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 02/10/2014 19:09

The issue here is whether a feminist perspective analyses the nformation at hand or overlays a narrative that didn't necessarily exist. In this case it is the latter and for many of the commentators there is no other interpretation available other than high-powered man vs (fake) junior woman. Are we really saying that people and their actions can be no more than the class they represent? Because that's what's happening. The facts are irrelevant. The personalities are irrelevant. The entrapment is irrelevant. The ensouragement is irrelevant. All the feminist perspective needs to know is that a powerful man sent his cock to what he thought was a junior woman and we'll take it from there, thank you.

As I said before, FF applied finishing touches to her theory before she even knew the facts and, when they became more evident.... nothing changed. What does that tell us?

WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 02/10/2014 19:16

Also, for what it's worth, I gave my view early in. It was ignored so I went away. I glanced back and found that my opinion was apparently part of what allowed Jimmy Saville to get away with his abuses. Yep, I kinda got a bit angry after that.

FloraFox · 02/10/2014 19:26

yonic it's fairly well accepted in employment situations that people in positions of power should not have sexual relationships with their juniors while they are both working in the situation. It used to be considered to be the responsibility of the junior partner to spurn the advances whereas now the power imbalance is more recognised. So in fact it is an old fashioned view to expect the individual concerned to be responsible for the spurning.

Of course, if you can't analyse relationships from a power perspective nor the underlying expectations and assumptions at play (because of course if is very rarely whatever the sex of the parties, it is almost always a senior man and a junior woman). However, it is much easier to simply say it is not a feminist issue but individual women must deal with this themselves. We hear this all the time in mainstream discourse.

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YonicScrewdriver · 02/10/2014 19:52

Flora, sometimes relationships do develop at work (lucky for me as that's where my parents met!) or through work associations. I disagree that such relationships are always wrong but agree they are wrong if not handled with care, particularly by the more senior (usually the man)

FloraFox · 02/10/2014 20:15

Yonic I agree they are often not wrong in a moral sense. Lots of people meet at work. They can be fraught with problems though and they are risky for the employer, especially when the senior is just after a casual shag and the junior needs the senior's support for continued employment or advancement. As well as potential exploitation of the individual concerned, there is the risk of favouritism that affects everyone else.

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 02/10/2014 20:21

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FloraFox · 02/10/2014 20:40

Empire I'm not interested in your personal campaign against me. This isn't AIBU.

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 02/10/2014 20:48

Who's setting the rules now? Smile

MyEmpireOfDirt · 02/10/2014 20:58

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