Places Hostile to Women

[NickAndNora]

Following on from the thread about women behaving differently in women-only company I'm wondering if there are still places that women, rightly or wrongly, see as no-go areas. I'm in my forties and I've never set foot inside a betting shop. I've also only once been to a pub entirely on my own, and it was a country pub in the daytime and I sat in the garden. I still got loads of stares though. Years ago I went into a specialist sci-fi/comic shop to buy a present for a friend who was into that kind of stuff - male customers, male staff (discussing loudly which female sci-fi actresses they'd most like to fuck - Gillian Anderson apparently having too much cellulite for them). It felt like I had transgressed by stepping through the door. When I was uni there were rooms with pool tables and dartboards attached to each bar. You never saw a female student in there.

Any more places designed to be off-putting to women?

Some gyms are... and I still remember an old friend complaining about men-only or at least extremely women-unfriendly golf clubs.

I'm sure there are more that I've experienced but can't think of them just now!

I think there are places that women are effectively, but not legally, barred from entering. Only about five years ago one of my friends was refused service in a country pub because she was in the bar and not the lounge room.

Yep, a man I once dated tried to take me to the members section of the rugby union match we were at. I was refused entry by one of the guys in the group, because I was wearing flat shoes, and the dress code for women was heels. There were only a couple of women with this group of men, who obviously knew about the high heels rule. I think most male dominated sports are not particularly friendly to women, and the boyfriend at the time made a comment about rugby union have a reputation for being misogynistic. Yuck. These sporting clubs tolerate women because, legally, they can't refuse them, but they would rather not have women there.

I'm also thinking about garages. When I found a mechanic whose garage didn't make me feel positively uncomfortable I became a loyal customer. You'd think businesses wouldn't want to alienate a potentially huge customer base.

A female art student I know says the male students often blag materials from building sites but, although she's not a shrinking violet, she doesn't feel confident about stepping into these places and ends up having to buy stuff. I guess she'd be expected to flirt to get the materials, whereas the men just have to be friendly and polite.

Yes to betting shops-but that may be because I've never been in one.

However I have no qualms about going in a pub or bar on my own, at all. I've had to do this many times for many reasons and also, I quite like to take a book and get myself a couple of glasses of wine, when the opportunity arises (not often now I'm older)!

Gyms, yes-I go to a predominantly male one though, and I don't feel uncomfortable in it. I think I would, if it wasn't a family business. The Grandmother is often the one behind the counter. If she wasn't there, and wasn't so welcoming toward me it might be a different story.

I think it often depends on the place itself rather than the type of place.

I feel that way about the free weights area of my gym. It's not a men-only area - in fact the only sex segregation the gym has is a woman-only two hours on one night a week.

But still, I feel awkward going there. It's just a space in a mixed environment, but it's such a male space. Men are so fucking grunty when they work out. And they hog space and equipment in a way women don't. I only use the space in quiet times when there's a free bench - I would never ask a man to move/whether he was using the bench next to where he had his stuff, even if he wasn't on it at the time. A woman, I would.

To be fair, when I have used it, the men there have never been anything other than courteous and polite, so it's definitely my issue not theirs. But it's still an issue, I think.

I can't think of anywhere, although I have one garage be idiots, but they might well have chosen to be pricked to a young male student to.

I'm a scientist, I'm used to being one if a very few girls/women in the group and many if our town dancers were held in the local rugby club, so I'd have told them where to stick their dress code.

Amethyst I think that you have pointed out something that it very important as well, in the dynamics of women in more male dominated spaces. I feel it is important that as women, we feel confident and empowered enough to go into a male space and assert that you want to be there, you want to use the equipment, and as a paying customer, you have a right to use that equipment. It is worth recognising situations which are actually hostile to women (eg making up excuses so you can't enter a certain space, giving you odd looks, dismissive mannerisms and attitudes), and recognising situations where women are uncomfortable with the sheer majority of men there - the latter you can do something about, the first one, not so much.

There's also the issue of being young. Young women/girls are really expected to defer to others. Older women tend to shrug it off no matter what people try to impose on them.

I'd love to distill it down into bullet points. What is it exactly?

Why on earth should any dress code insist on heels? Some people never wear them, either through choice, or because they have foot problems which mean they can't.

I've been in a betting shop a couple of times. I guess this would be more if I actually gambled (was putting on a bet for someone else). I've certainly sat in bars on my own. Never felt inclined to play golf, and prefer to swim than gym, so don't really have to deal with those either. I'm single, so I do have to deal with the garage by myself, but I've not found the local one I use to be problematic.

Like Elephants, I work in a male-dominated environment, so I've got used to being in a minority, and I don't often feel uncomfortable just because I'm the only woman there. I guess I've developed a thick skin over the years.

I must live in a alien bubble I think as I've never found a problem going into pubs, gyms, garages, betting shops, rugby clubs (DH was a rugby player and I've been in clubs all over the country in the past). My first 20 years at work I was a journalist and went into all sorts of places - often very rough - that were not, apparently, female friendly, but hand on heart I've never been made to feel it was a problem or even vaguely uncomfortable.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but if so I've been lucky for 50 years, so I'm maybe wondering if it is more to do with how you personally feel in these environments e.g. whether you feel or expect to feel uncomfortable. Men picking up on uncomfortable vibes perhaps? Dunno. As I said, maybe just luck.

I used to hate the free-weights section of the gym Amethyst. I stopped using it after a bloke tried to mansplain to me that I was doing it all wrong. I wanted to tell him that I wasn't trying to become a bodybuilder, but being young and easily intimidated, I smiled through gritted teeth and pretended I had finished my work out. After that I stopped using that section of the gym and gave up my membership because I felt angry paying for a service that I didn't want to use.

I wonder what men would do if a wealthy woman bought St Andrews Golf Club and turned it into a women-only club?

If I ever have far too much money, I'll buy st Andrews and only allow men in if they're wearing mini-kilts and heels. Reasonable?

YY Zazzle - there's definitely a difference between being nervous about going somewhere in yourself, or because it's actively hostile.

I've been in pubs, betting shops, gyms (including free weights), garages, tech places, comic shops etc. and not had any hassle (beyond a surprised look occasionally), and I think that's because I knew I was allowed to be in those places, and I had that confidence (like walking into a building for a salespitch or job interview)

I did once go in a Spanish bar and whilst no-one was hostile, it was very clear that they didn't want me there (one of the salon type ones where the men hang about all day watching the bull fights).

I can't think of anywhere that's been actively hostile, but I am often oblivious to these things when I'm on some mission for myself.

What about subjects too? My friend's DD wanted to do A'level Maths and was told by one of the teachers that she would be a disruption to the all boy class! She's pretty tough-minded so is doing it anyway but many would be put off from taking a class if it were dominated by the other gender, regardless of having the legal right to take it.

Interesting-

betting shops- tbh I think anyone who doesn't feel they can nonchalantly place a bet using the correct lingo feels a bit out of place/ self- conscious in those. I dont mind them as I used to take bets in for various people from when I was quite young. I think they're also intimidating as you cant see into them before you go through the door, which makes you feel vulnerable.

Bars/pubs on my own- no problem (although I probably wouldnt go and drink alone to be fair) but obviously it also depends on the bar or pub.

Gyms- this is tricky because they can seem intimidating, but at the same time, I think this can often be about preconceptions rather than the people there being hostile. I do Crossfit and when I first arrived for my induction I nearly ran straight out again as it was full of all these ripped guys dropping bar bells and yelling "yeah" at each other, BUT had I done that, I would have been wrong, because actually the guy I saw and thought "He look scary" is absolutely not hostile to women and the other members are also perfectly nice guys. I think maybe the issue with gyms that focus heavily on performance work (rather than "I do body pump so I can get arms like Jennifer Aniston") is that a lot of conventional wisdom says that women shouldnt do that sort of training/ that it's unfeminine/ will generate muscle bulk etc, so women dont do it, so these gyms become male preserves. BUT from what I've seen, the men at those actual gyms dont have that attitude.

Garages - to be fair, I think a lot of them just like to rip people off who know nothing about cars. Dh hates going there as much as me. But yes, I think there is an assumption that women generally know less about cars than men.

Interesting, Amethyst. I used to use the free weights room in the university gym - I doubt if I'd have dared to go in on my own, but my then boyfriend took me in there. I actually found it a very quiet, respectful atmosphere. So long as you were just getting on with doing your thing, no-one batted an eyelid (in fact, I found it much more comfortable than the mixed weights machine/cardio room next door which seemed to be full of men judging women on whether they were lycra gym bunnies - I could potter into the free weights room in trackies and a baggy t-shirt with my weights belt and simply be accepted).

The A level thing is interesting - I went to a girls' comp which went mixed my final year there - immediately the school went from 10 girls doing pure and applied maths/physics/further maths in my year to 1 girl doing pure maths and stats/physics/further maths (for some reason I've never been able to fathom, stats is seen as the acceptably girly face of maths).

Re. pubs - when on maternity leave, if DS fell asleep in the pushchair on the walk back from town, I quite often used to buy a newspaper and pop into an (admittedly very civilized) pub on the way home for a half pint! (The half is not girliness - I am simply small and fall over if I drink much more than that).

Definitely agree about garages! Such a difference when I'm on my own.

Although I did go to a garage in the Lake District when my car broke down, and the man and his mate were just amazing. They were completely polite, calmly explained what was wrong (not in jargon, just explaining how that bit of the engine works and what was broken). They explained as if they expected me to understand, which I don't think any mechanic before has done.

It should be standard, really. It did get me thinking how bad they are around where I live. They are actively hostile, with a veneer of sleaze (which they probably think is 'charm' ). It's not gender-neutral round here, either - the reason they feel hostile to me is the attitude is heavily gendered, so it's all 'aw, you'll love this car, madam, so easy to park!' and 'after you, ladies first!' bollocks. When I went with my DH, even though he can't drive, it was all 'yes, the 1.6 engine is a better bet, it's quite nippy, you might like to try the bigger Mazda too ...'.

opaque i work (i think) quite near where you are (before you move), and was recommended a small repair garage that's just down the road from my office. they were very straightforward, and charged me £20 for a quick fix that took them 15 minutes while i waited. it was very nice - there's a similar place down the road from my house too

my great grandmother used to like a bet every now and then back in the 70s, but felt it wasn't quite the done thing so she used to sneak in and out of the betting shop when she'd made sure no one who knew her could see her

i know there are women on here who work in IT, but i find our IT department rather intimidating to walk through. it's very male-dominated as many are (our desktop support team is exclusively male, and likes to make you feel as though you don't dare trouble them if you've got a problem you haven't been able to fix), and everyone looks at you when you walk in. interestingly, if one of the desktop support team comes to your desk, they're great on an individual basis, really nice and helpful. but if you enter their domain it's very uncomfortable

On the subject of betting shops and gyms, to be fair, these can be hostile places for lots of men too. My other half is far more comfortable going in a bookies than I am, because her dad gambles and she therefore knows the lingo. And the free weights section of my gym is pretty much a no-go area if you're not a regular - a whole world of sideways looks and passive aggression.

Agree completely about garages too, though I get the impression that there are plenty who don't act like twats towards women. Market forces innit.

This thread got me thinking about mens spaces and sports.

DP plays for a Sunday football team. I go to watch sometimes, so do a couple of other partners. I've never seen any other women at these matches. None of the clubs have female teams. At one venue, they didn't open up the clubhouse fully until lunchtime, which meant the only access to the ladies loos was to walk through a changing room. Two of us did it (making sure it was 'our' team's) with loud announcements first from us and our eyes shielded to make a sort of joke of it, but it was pretty crap of the venue to just assume no women would be coming along. In the bar afterwards, sometimes I have been the only women among 60 or so men. I can see that a lot of women would feel uncomfortable going along, even though we are made welcome really, loo incident aside.

So that's an example of cultural/social exclusion. Most women don't want to be there, there's an assumption that there won't be many or any women there.

then there's the more deliberate institutional exclusion. I had a look at the local rather poshish golf club membership info. Nothing about ladies/mens memberships spelled out overtly, one fee to join, one annual fee, dress code doesn't mention any gender specifics. Then you look further. At one point in the rules it says that Full Members, including Ladies, can have X guests on X days. Why do they need to have that 'including Ladies' wording if they don't treat them differently in other ways? And then reading between the lines later they start talking about 'Midweek Members' as well, which I suspect is their new name for a reduced type of Ladies membership entitlements while trying to avoid accusations of gender discrimination. Would love to email them to find out...

I just might do that...

Midweek members at the golf clubs I know are usually retired people, mostly men, reducing the cost of their membership to suit their incomes. The "including ladies" part is probably a throw back to when they had ladies' memberships, which would have been cheaper, but did not carry the same privileges as the male members. They should probably remove it now that there is only one type of full membership, but at the time they were probably making it clear that things had changed when they abolished the ladies membership class.

They do have a Ladies group and LAdies committee, so it sounds as though it's pretty separate still?

I get the point about Midweek members though. Strange they pay the same as the Full members, but perhaps that's normal. And the midweek members are all 9 hole members, from what I can work out - the old ladies membership? I don't know. All sounds a bit old school to me.

Not that I have any interest in playing golf anyway.