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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's boxing ?

26 replies

Inexsex · 14/09/2014 14:26

I've never liked boxing or any kind of violence but a male friend of mine was telling me last night that Manny Pacquiao ( lightweight boxer who is about 5'6'' and 145 lbs) would KO the best heavyweight female boxer in the world within 30 seconds. When I got back home I looked it up and the female heavyweight champion is 6'6'' and 180 lbs. Is it just me or he is out of his mind to think such a small guy could easily KO a woman who is so much taller and heavier?

OP posts:
CaptChaos · 14/09/2014 15:20

Hi Inesex, welcome to MN

thedancingbear · 14/09/2014 16:20

What an odd post, Inexsex. Why do you care whether a man could beat up a woman?

gincamparidryvermouth · 14/09/2014 16:26

the female heavyweight champion is 6'6'' and 180 lbs

Who are you referring to?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 14/09/2014 19:47

Vonda Ward, maybe?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 14/09/2014 19:50

www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/9/4080712/dr-benjamin-not-on-board-with-transgender-female-fallon-fox-fighting This is not entirely the same issue but touches on some ways in which men might have a physical advantage over women, all other things being equal.

TheSameBoat · 14/09/2014 19:56

I don't think the case for feminism rests on women being as physically strong as men. So I don't really care who can beat who up.

CaptChaos · 14/09/2014 20:35

I'm not very rational when it comes to women's sport, I was told this by a man, and they should know because men know everything about sport. Because they have penises. Natch.

NickAndNora · 14/09/2014 21:53

Manny Pacquiao would win any boxing match against anyone because his name is Manny and he must be extra-specially, super-duperly man-ny. Man-ny people are strong and should rule the world. Boxers should rule the world because they are really good at punching. Chris Eubank for our supreme overlord! Yay!

RJnomore · 14/09/2014 21:59

Manny pacquaio is a lovely man so no need to take Thr piss out of his name.

It would be interesting seeing any gender of lightweight against a heavyweight as the lightweight will not hit as hard but will be sharper and faster on their feet while a heavy weight will not throw so many punches but will be a big, big hitter.

However boxing is for wimps anyway and a good Thai boxer would beat any of them hands down Grin

Anonnynonny · 14/09/2014 23:06

So here's what a boxing friend of mine said in response to the OP:

"they obviously don't know about women's boxing or they'd know that women's weight classes have an extra 1kg to account for women's weights and that pound for pound taking that kg into account female boxers are just as good as males. Katie Taylor spars with men and women alike"

ManMagnet · 14/09/2014 23:27

Clear troll here.

This person has no idea about boxing or they would not even be talking about the pros.

Female boxers, especially in Europe apart from the exception of a handful in Germany have little to gain by going pro and fewer still, actually want to. What people don't realise when they sit at home watching boxing on their fat lazy asses thinking they actually have a clue is that there is very little money to be made in pro boxing for men and women alike, but this holds especially true for women's boxing.

Pro boxing is extremely exploitative, for men and women alike, most male pro boxers will never earn the kind of money mayweather and pacquio are making it for their hard work and skill.

I have met several world champion champion boxers and my coach is also an ex world champion and without exception I can safely say not one of them would spout this kind of crap and have always been respectful about other boxers. This is because real boxers are people who actually understand what it is to get into a ring and do it and accordingly most of us always give due respect to other boxers whether they be male or female alike.

From heavy weight to flyweight, in boxing we judge boxers relative to their weight and their record.

Another sign this person obviously don't know about women's boxing is that they have failed to recognise the fact that women's weight classes have an extra 1kg to account for women's have a different body fat to muscle ratio. This is why men are more likely to die from hypothermia than women in the cold. I've sparred with pros who were a couple of kg bigger than me and sure they were alot stronger, but honestly, I have never sparred with a lad my own weight who was a match, and I am genuinely not blowing my own trumpet there. This is absolutely true. A better example has to be Katie taylor who spars with men and women alike have a look and I dare any man ~ 60kg to get in the ring with her, because she'd take their heads off, I'm tellin' you which is why she even got respect from the biggest sexist idiot in boxing Amir Kahn at the olympics.

Of course there are physical differences between men and women but if the OP thinks for a second that boxing is all about strength then they are a bigger fool than they sound.

Seriously OP, stop spouting about stuff you know absolutely nothing about. It's embarrassing and it is so bleedin' obvious you've never even looked at a real live ring let alone got in one from what you're saying. If you had you would not be chatting such nonsense.

Besides all that let's address the OP's Manny Pacquio example. Here is a fine boxer who has probably had more bouts than any female boxer could achieve in their lifetime because there simply are not enough females boxing yet for even the most experienced of us to gain the kind of experience he has had the opportunity to gain in his. Female boxing is growing but it is like comparing apples to oranges when you consider how much of an intrinsic part of development it is for boxers to gain experience of varied sparring and competition to improve. That notwithstanding, the lighter boxers get, the more technical the boxing gets. Anyone who knows about boxing does not actually watch it to see people getting knocked out.

You really need to know about boxing to appreciate that in boxing, we can only compare boxers only to other boxers of similar experience levels and weight categories. We do not just throw novices in the ring with intermediates or intermediates in the ring with open class boxers or open class boxers in with pros because that IS how people get knocked out. It happens, I've seen it done to lots of big muscle bound inexperienced men who's coaches were foolish enough to let them get in with guys more experience than themselves, get dropped. So I have to reiterate once more, that the OP is talking out their asshole.

Zazzles007 · 14/09/2014 23:46

Is this just another wind-up thread? Or are you serious OP? I note that your OP is the only post under this name.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 14/09/2014 23:49

ManMagnet, thanks for that informative and interesting post.

OP... Not so much.

NickAndNora · 15/09/2014 00:43

RJ

Do you think I am taking the piss out of Manny Pacquaio or the piss out of the OP? Think about it for a second.

NickAndNora · 15/09/2014 06:18

There's a documentary about Georgian women bare-knuckle fighters on right now. I've never heard about this before. I'd heard about female gladiators but this is completely new to me. Seems like a lot of things women were meant to have started doing in the 20th century had actually been going on for a long time, disappeared in the early 20th century and re-emerged with feminism.

ManMagnet · 15/09/2014 09:16

It's actually misinformation that 2012 was the first time women were boxing in the olympics. They were in it ~100 years ago but it got taken out. Boxing is the only olympic sport which does not have the same no of female entries and catagories as men.

The sexism in boxing arises directly from the pro culture which glamorises the violence of the sport and attracts an audience who seek to watch people getting knocked out and has ring girls as the women involved.

In amateur boxing the ref will stop a bout well before it gets like that which is why technical knockouts are very common in amateur. You do see amateur knockouts in boxing but they are quite unusual and mostly tend to be because of a well placed body shot that nobody, including the ref, saw coming.

Statistically amateur boxing is less dangerous than both ruby and football, in fact.

ManMagnet · 15/09/2014 09:33

To paraphrase Germaine Greer's take on it. Boxing is either a violent sport that nobody should be allowed to take part in or it is just like any other sport that women should be able to take part in it just the same as men can.

ChunkyPickle · 15/09/2014 09:34

ManMagnet the experience point is a very good one - just look at women in the UFC (the latest season of The Ultimate Fighter is all women - to launch a new weight category I believe). They just haven't had the chance to gain the experience that the men have, so in some ways it's rather like watching fights from way back at the beginning of the men's competitions (with some notable exceptions).

I'm very interested to see how the women's fight styles develop - whether there are things that women will do differently because of our different anatomy (could hips make some holds easier/more difficult to escape from for instance).

I'm pretty sure I've seen a pride MMA fight between a giant of a man and a very small one, but I can't for the life of me remember who won - I think it was the lightweight because the big guy just couldn't keep up.

ManMagnet · 15/09/2014 16:12

Chunky Pickle:

In Boxing were you get boxers like laila ali and katie taylor who have had the opportunity to learn boxing from being a small kid from being taught by their father's who are retired boxers themselves at a time where most of their competition have not had that opportunity so when they compete it becomes so easy to put those women on pedestals or to be objective and see the potential there for women's boxing to be great with a bit of nurturing over generations.

I don't think we are seeing that kind of thing in MMA probably because women are more likely to have started doing more martial arts from being a kid, the same as the men so we do not tend to see such differences in skill between one another (i.e we're not seeing katies or layla's in MMA), yet it is clear that women struggle to gain bout experience in MMA as in boxing, if not more in MMA than in Boxing actually. We don't tend to go up and down the weight classes by more than a few kg just to get a bout, because in amateur boxing our coaches do not allow us to do stupid things like that. That said, it's been a while since I last paid attention to it, to be honest so I might be a little behind the times there...

One example of a bout which never should have happened in the first place was Sexton vs. Carano. Sexton is nowhere even close to Carano's weight class, I think Carano has over 10kg on Sexton on a normal day No disrespect to Gina Carano, but pound for pound sexton seems to be a more technical, better fighter whereas Carano, whilst good won that bout before it even started against a "fighter" who is pound for pound, imho a lot better then her. Carano stopped Sexton by knocking her out cold which to me seemed like an inevitability but to the crowd it must have just seemed like Carano was really great and Sexton was no good, or something. I think that sort of nonsense gives combat sports a really bad image because it's just crowd pleasing.

I have mixed feelings about MMA for similar reasons to those expressed about pros and the stuff above really. So far as I can see in Boxing we have a safer and a more sensible approach to matchmaking and bout safety than in MMA but with that said, you do get silly matchmaking going on in the pros in boxing too, for sure. I am not sure how MMA matchmaking works but in Boxing, it is the coaches who do the matchmaking. One stark difference, however is that in MMA the onus is on the "fighter" to tap out if they are losing whereas usually in boxing it will be the corner or the ref who will stop a bout unless the boxer does that themselves which is exceptionally rare. There is a reason it is rare. Combat sports are a third fitness a third skill and a third psychology.

As a "fighter", you need to believe you are going to win to the end and besides all that, in a bout you don't really feel yourself getting hurt because of all that adrenaline kicking in. I had to throw in the towel for a guy I was cornering once, he was on survival mode and had no idea what was going on so he would not have been well placed to make the right decision for his own safety, he got a silver anyway but the reality is he would have got hurt in that bout if we had not seen fit to stop it.

It's when corner people and management are just in it to make a buck or a name for themselves that in my view these sports start going bad and things get more and more sexist. From my experience anyway, there seems to be a definite link between those who are interested in exploiting combat sport and those who seem opposed to women taking part.

I guess perhaps the majority of those who exploit combat sports can sleep better knowing it was only some 25 year old guy getting his head punched in for a baying crowd of drunken gamblers whereas somehow women doing it is deemed to be unacceptable because they want to be able to objectify women in quite another way, or something like that. People who get boxing and are involved for the right reasons, are increasingly gaining respect for women's participation in the sport. I imagine MMA would be much the same but the problem in MMA is more the direction the sport itself is going so I am not totally hopeful about the future for women or men in the sport as things are to be honest.

I think when you take money out the equation, these sports really do get a lot cleaner and you will attract more women as things are though, I think MMA is a fast growing market and market is the word, there. Right now (at least anyway) there just doesn't seem to be enough of an amateur culture for the sport to become an attractive enough option for female competitors to grow at the rate they are in boxing these days. imho, for MMA to best nurture the growth female presence in competition, it would need to nurture that amateur culture more and try to get itself into competition like the Olympics. Otherwise the culture in MMA will continue to force female competitors to take huge risks (as Sexton did with Carano) just to gain experience and feel they are able to progress. I am not saying that does not happen in boxing, it does. I've taken risks myself in all honesty, but in MMA the problem there seems a bigger hill to climb when you consider all the other factors.

Curwen · 15/09/2014 17:16

ManMagnet - thanks for the insight. I had no idea that women's UFC was such a growth sport. I have looked at some clips on Youtube, and they aren't messing about! Cat Zingano looks like a heck of a fighter.

On the wider issue of combat sports, is feminism overall comfortable with them? Given that they are a controlled environment where there are willing participants in both genders, I can't see a reason why there would be an issue, but it isn't something that I have considered before now.

rosabud · 15/09/2014 17:42

Curwen Perhaps if you want to discuss what feminism thinks about combat sports, you ought to start a new thread as your question potentially dreails this one. I don't know what response you would get, though, as feminism is about liberating women from male oppression rather than deciding what are "acceptable" sports. Are you possibly muddling it with pacificsm?

PetulaGordino · 15/09/2014 17:51

i think manmagnet's GG quote sums up how most (though i imagine by no means all) feminists would view combat sports

this is a very interesting thread about something i know nothing about. thanks so much for the very detailed and knowledgeable posts

PetulaGordino · 15/09/2014 17:52

tbh rosa i'm not sure this thread has taken the turn the OP expected Grin

Curwen · 15/09/2014 19:20

Well I could Rosa, but as MM is here and has a very good knowledge of the subject, I was interested to canvass her opinion. We are already off at a tangent from the OP - male vs female boxers - so I thought it was a valid question. Still, if you want me to I'll withdraw the question.

ManMagnet · 15/09/2014 19:56

Curwen:

If you are keen to start a discussion on feminism and combat sports then I'm happy to comment further on that too, as long as someone is able to provide a link so I know where to find it. ;-)