how do i behave in a more feminist way towards myself?

[PetulaGordino]

this is horribly self-indulgent, so apologies in advance. though hopefully others will use it as an opportunity to be self-indulgent too

i've been thinking about the "women and confidence" thread, but i didn't want to derail it with my own issues.

i have ENORMOUS self-image / body image / self-confidence issues. massive history of ED which is now reasonably stable

when i think about, look at, interact with and talk about other women, behaving in a feminist way comes pretty naturally to me. i do have some socialised prejudices about the appearances of other women, but they are easily dismissed

but my internal monologue towards myself is relentlessly misogynist. my expectation of what i "should" look like is something i will never achieve, and yet i still berate myself for not achieving it. my other expectations of myself, which basically conform to the "perfect woman" in terms of success at work, in relationships, house, appearance, hobbies, being happy and confident etc, would be out of reach for almost anyone. even with all that i seem to expect myself to be the "perfect feminist", which is equally impossible. i don't have children yet, but i fear that if i do i will be overwhelmed with trying to be the "perfect mother" too. the main thing, which seems key, is that i seem to have an expectation of myself that i have failed if i have needs (food, affection, someone else's time and energy etc). the root causes are of course in my upbringing and socialisation (and not just about advertising though of course it has played its role). rationally, i know it's all bullshit, but these thought processes are deeply ingrained, and it will take time to deprogramme myself from this effectively

i don't have anything like this sort of expectation of other women. so why do i think i should achieve these things and have failed if i haven't - am i some kind of special case? i'm not quite so self-obsessed as to imagine that

i should add that i have therapy which explores this as part of my ED treatment, so i'm not looking for that sort of support really, or really wanting to make this too much about me. i'm more interested to know if others have managed to overcome this, or if they have never experienced these sorts of feelings what their internal monologue is like

Marking place, back later!

i don't know either. i'm sort of hoping that as i get older i'll just start giving less of a shit

but if i have daughters, anything i can do to inoculate them against this... i don't know if that's possible though

I think equality is a good place to start. Your worries about what you should be, how you should be, what feminism is, etc., are largely or exclusively about women. But if you are just obsessing about how a woman should be, whether in terms of her appearance, career, being a mother, etc or even whether she is feminist enough, then you're kind of wandering away from what, for me, is the point of feminism - equality with men.

I don't think feminism gets very far when it is about what women should be or do, even when that is well-intentioned. I find it much more constructive in my own life to apply the question of equality to all the situations that I deal with.

So, work - am I working to the same kinds of expectations a man would, is my pay equal, am I getting treated equally by bosses.

Body image - do I feel differently about what is expected of my appearance/weight etc. to what I expect of men? If so why and how can I adjust that?

Changing my name. I wouldn't, because my DP wouldn't. Equality achieved, end of internal debate.

Parenthood - am I sharing as equally as possible with DP, are we both getting an adequate break, are we demonstrating to our DC that gender equality is important?

There is no perfection, there is no 100% achievement record in real life. You do as well as you can but what is important in my book is that you should be held to the same standards as, and have the same breaks and rewards as, a man. I don't mean the exact same as obviously there are physical differences so allowing for that. But the same in esteem, responsibility and value.

i absolutely agree with you - the way i feel about myself is far removed from feminist, and i don't apply that sort of thinking to the women and men around me

those are interesting and useful thought processes, thanks

For me, the big thing that changed my way of thinking was becoming very ill and believing I was going to die. NB - I would NOT recommend this method! It focused my mind a lot and I realised that on my death bed literally the only person there, in my head, would be me. And I would hate to have let her down. So I see her as a person that I owe a huge amount to and I treat her very kindly, I thank her for surviving and carrying me through life and I don't have any expectations of her that I don't have of other people.

I find that being kind to myself means I am very kind to other people. My capacity to forgive and let things go has increased massively, such that things that would have riled me up massively in the past might still bug me but I can work them out and let them go.

You will die one day. And how thin you were really won't matter.

So you need to kind of learn how to give less of a fuck. Is that kind of it?

Tricky.

Are there any areas where you don't judge yourself against this terribly high bar, where you give yourself leeway, where you are satisfied with "good enough", where you feel pride for achievement rather than despondency unless you have prevailed entirely?

I am like you in some areas but not others. It would be interesting to see if you have any areas where you are more, relaxed for want of a better word, and what they are.

I try to catch the thoughts, if i can, and ask myself if I'd say that about a sister, a friend, another woman.

DH once said something that stuck with me when I was berating myself for something - "If anyone else talked about you the way you talk about yourself, I'd be really cross with them. You're my wife and it's horrible hearing those things said about you."

I don't believe that "women are their own worst enemies" but I do believe it's possible for me to be my own worst enemy sometimes; I strive to be my own best friend instead.

Thanks this is really helpful. I find it rather upsetting to post about so I'm going to absorb a bit and come back

Hope you are a OK Petula .

Marking place. I am a horrible people pleaser, apologist and yes-woman. I would never expect anyone else to act like I did, but when it's me I always assume everything is a result of my failure to do something. No idea where to start with that either.

Take care, Petula.

Marking place.

This is an interesting topic which I saw hours ago and was only able to get to just now. As Cailin wrote:

For me, the big thing that changed my way of thinking was becoming very ill and believing I was going to die.

Unfortunately, I've been through that experience as well, and I don't recommend it either. And the thing is, going through a traumatic crisis doesn't guarantee that you will heal and gain the confidence (or whatever it is you are after) you desire. I have met many, many people who have been through things like divorce, death of a child/spouse/loved one, personal tragedy, etc etc, who haven't healed at all, and are just as 'broken' as they were before the trauma.

The root causes are of course in my upbringing

As I have mentioned in a couple of threads, I have a huge interest in psychology, and from a psychological view-point, this is the one thing you can influence and fix (but it is huge thing). And it takes much, much more than just a number of counseling sessions and reading some books (this is just a starting point). Ya' know the effort that you put into a job? It takes that sort of analysis, planning, implementing, measuring your results, ruminating on where you can do better, and then starting the whole shebang all over again.

There are a some books which can really, really help people who want to improve their confidence, change themselves for the better, and reset how they think about themselves. The Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden is pretty much the seminal book on the subject. It will help with the whole upbringing thing too, and in conjunction counseling and other stuff, it basically saved my life .

"For me, the big thing that changed my way of thinking was becoming very ill and believing I was going to die."

I am sorry to hear that this happened to you, Cailin.

I am not properly ill but a series of niggling, uncomfortable and inconvenient health issues + a sense of getting older has suddenly changed my perspective slightly. Very slightly; not enough. but it is a chink of a window into a different, warmer way of thinking.

This is a very good idea for a thread. it is a very clear articulation of some vague thoughts I had been having recently and have not been able to express like this.

thanks so much for the thoughtful replies here, and for the good wishes too. i did think i might deserve a "stop being so self-obsessed when women and children are being murdered" (but that thought process is probably part of the problem)

i'm both relieved and saddened that this resonates with others

cailin and zazzles i'm sorry that your revelations came about through such a scary situation. the point about "I thank her for surviving and carrying me through life" is wonderful. i have put my body through hell - denying it sustenance and abusing it with exercise and other things - and yet it goes on going on in its miraculous way despite my best efforts, allowing me to go to lovely places and touch people i love and create works of art and generally not giving up on me

seven, giving less of a fuck is basically it yes. there are lots of things i do "well enough" but it's still not enough for that little voice in my head. apart from ironing. i don't really iron and i don't give a shit about that, despite MIL's comments.

winifred your dh is right, and dp says the same. he says that it is offensive too when i think i am unlovable because implies that he is stupid or deluded.

hoppy your description resonates with me. as a child i took on the burden of responsibility of the whole family's happiness (no one intended for that, it was partly my personality and partly circumstances) and that has a lasting legacy

buffy going solely by your posts here i don't think you have anything to worry about re your intelligence, but i also know that my saying that makes very little difference! i too am having a work-related crisis and it has brought back a lot of issues i had thought i had dealt with

it does help to know i'm not alone, but it's also depressing. and the way that society talks about women who are confident, don't give a fuck, demonstrates clearly that they are not in the place that is intended for them. but wonderful to know that they exist

vezzie i'm pleased it's helpful to more people than just me

and zazzles, thanks for the book recommendation - i've put an order in at the library

Something happened at work months ago that stayed with me. I was getting some informal ad hoc coaching from someone very senior who does not usually spend time with me. He responded to a presentation I gave by giving me some advice, and one of the things he said was

"Identify the barriers, and where they are external, identify those that are in your area of influence." so far, so standard.

"When you identify a barrier that is in yourself -" and he paused meaningfully and looked at me, and I expected to be told I would have to improve myself in order to remove whatever that barrier is - work harder in some way - change myself - get better - but the sentence continued, and he said this really clearly and forcefully so it stuck in my head, "Find a way round it."

That is so liberating! That is such a great way to think. I have been thinking a lot about this at work, that when things don't work first time, instead of thinking "I am not ready" "I am not good enough" "I shouldn't have tried this, after all I am a bit shit, have low stamina, am prone to illness, don't work as hard as I should" (etc etc etc all the crap) - instead of thinking how I don't deserve it because I am flawed, I think "find a way round it". I can only change so much of myself, but I can find a way round things that are not my natural skills

Such a forgiving, open, constructive, creative way to think

i did think i might deserve a "stop being so self-obsessed when women and children are being murdered" (but that thought process is probably part of the problem)

I do think that thought process is a big part of a lot of our problems. Telling ourselves we must not be sad because there are others in a worse position is like telling ourselves we shouldn't be happy because there are other people better off.

We are socially conditioned not to show sadness, and not event to FEEL sadness. I see children all the time being told they must not cry, must not be sad, everything is OK!

Then when we do find ourselves feelings sad, we reject it! We think: why do I feel that way? what is wrong with me? what it bad in my life? how can I fix it? And these thoughts spiral down... and pretty soon feel even worse.

Just feeling our (especially negative) feelings for as long as they last, and not trying to root them out and shoo them away, is something we are bad at.

I'm not sure how this helps OP but ... I think it fits in somewhere.

Find a way round it.

I love that, vezzie. It embodies self-forgiveness, self-acceptance. So important.

thank you vezzie, that is a useful tool

it isn't quite the same (and i've mentioned this before on here), but it reminds me of an ED counsellor who, when i talked about being worried about putting on weight and my clothes being tight and uncomfortable, just said "so buy bigger clothes". this blew my mind. not the suggestion itself, but the fact that this was offered as a solution with no judgement, and that the problem wasn't my "bad" body that didn't fit into the clothes, it was the clothes themselves that were wrong

indigui i think this is a really important point. women are taught that they should not have needs, or if they do they come last in the pecking order. and experiencing sadness, anger, disappointment, frustration, as reflections of needs not being met, are therefore signs of failure and selfishness

Ah Petula good on you for looking up the book and ordering it from the library already. It shows that you are ready for change, and really willing to address the confidence thing. Once you start reading book, and decide that you like it, it is worthwhile buying a copy for yourself. It has so much wisdom in it, that I found I wanted it handy, even after I finished reading it long ago. I wanted it handy to read a chapter here and there every so often, to remind myself of the way I wanted to live my life after trauma, and to not fall into the traps that we are all too aware of, but perhaps have no understanding of how to change.

The book also has some very simple exercises which are essential for the personal change you are trying to achieve, and improving your confidence and self esteem. I urge you to do the exercises (they're not hard at all) while you are still reading the book, as it is the exercises (not the book itself, although very very good) which help you to change your mindset at the most fundamental level.

Thank you Petula for starting this thread. Pretty much every word written here resonates with me. I have also had long struggles with eating disorders and my inner monologue is vicious.

Re the guilt: I feel guilty for feeling happy (there are people starving you know!) and guilty for feeling sad (there are people starving you know!). So am completely stuck feeling guilty whatever mood I'm in!

I am really trying to address this now as I have a baby dd and don't want her to grow up like me. I am having cbt at the moment after a sever episode of depression and we are doing lots of work on compassion for myself (why do I cringe when I write that?? Part of the problem I suspect) and building self esteem. There is a book by Melanie Fennell (can't remember the title but sth like improve your self esteem) which I am liking.

Find a way round it

Now that is truely good advice. And you know what, I think that is what men tend to do. They don't punish themselves as women tend to do with confidence undermining thoughts, with too much self-reflection and pondering on their flaws and feel bad about themselves.

Could this be the secret to their seemingly unperturbed self confidence and entitlement that we tend to lack. (Obviously generalising here). I can't believe that men are not insecure as well, every now and then, but they find a way round it!