Are Feminists Too Nice to Anti-Feminist Women?

[CKDexterHaven]

This post has been inspired by reading some of the non-FWR threads on Mumsnet and by the responses of women to even the mildest hint of feminism on them.

Sometimes, even in feminist spaces, it feels that if you criticise some women and their actions you will be accused of victim-blaming, lacking understanding or divisiveness. But why do we have to be so non-judgemental of women whose choices negatively impact the lives of other women?

I'm not talking here about women who truly have no options but about those women who use the limited options and powers women have in patriarchal society to always prioritise pleasing men over bettering the lives of women. I know all the arguments about women being the victims of socialisation and adopting survival strategies for living under patriarchy but any fight for human rights comes at a personal cost and, I have to say, sometimes I see women who put their own popularity with the power-wielders above fellow women as cowardly and dishonourable.

If we see men as an occupying power and women as an enslaved population, there are some women who compete with other women to become the master's favourite slave and other women who are working to end the slavery. The group of collaborators have decided to make the occupation work for them and will betray, attack and subjugate the resistance group in order to please the masters at any opportunity. If feminists really were a resistance group maybe we would see that in order to free all women we would have to cut some loose along the way.

The type of comments I am tired of seeing are -

1 - Feminists are as bad as men when it comes to telling other women what to do.
Well, feminism is a political ideology and political ideologies tend to have an opinion on how people live their lives. So, yeah, we have an opinion.

2 - Feminists judge me for my choices and are really shaming and mean.
Well, sometimes we are just analysing your choices and why you made them, but if you do make choices that sell out other women then why shouldn't we judge you?

3 - Men are 100% responsible for the patriarchy. Blaming women is victim-blaming and focusing attention away from the real villains.
Men are responsible for the patriarchy but women cheerleading for it are helping to prop it up. Either you want the patriarchy to end or you don't.

4 - In-fighting and criticising other women is divisive and unproductive and we have to work together to further the cause.
Well, constantly having to accommodate the views of women that are antithetical to your aims is also unproductive and unhelpful.

5 - I need feminists when I hit the glass ceiling at work or can't find reasonable childcare but how dare you bitches suggest my husband is a misogynist for watching porn! How dare you make me challenge things in my life!
Make the connections, dear.

Do you think feminism might move faster if we stopped trying to win over anti-feminist women and convince them feminism is necessary or do we need to swell our numbers?

Comparing women to an enslaved population is far too much. The situation is much more complex and subtle.

But that is probably part of the problem because convincing women that feminism is needed is difficult when there are so many perks of going along with the "patriarchy" or whatever it should appropriately be called.

There's something so comforting about going in the direction that society pushes you in. It's very isolating and depressing seeing the world in a feminist way so I can't blame women for unthinkingly going along with it. A coping mechanism.

But to answer your question I do think feminists are a bit soft on anti-feminist and a lot of that is probably because we are trying to avoid the "catfight" scenario where two women disagree and they're seen as "catty" despite the fact that men disagree all the time.

Why criticise at all? As a feminist, my aim isn't to judge or criticise, it's to analyse and improve. So, if a woman makes choices or holds opinions that I consider harmful to other women, my first reaction isn't to sympathise. Nor is it to criticise. My first reaction is to understand, not with the aim of excusing but with the aim of identifying the causes so they can be tackled.

My point is, to me feminism isn't a moral system under which actions are judged. It is a system of understanding and analysis. I may have a visceral reaction to women defending porn but that's not a feminist thing, that's a personal thing. My personal reaction is informed by feminism but it is irrelevant to any feminist arguments, if that makes sense?

I think it is fair to criticize anti-feminist women.

Anti-feminist is not the same as not a feminist though. I tend to not criticize them too much

"5 - I need feminists when I hit the glass ceiling at work or can't find reasonable childcare but how dare you bitches suggest my husband is a misogynist for watching porn! How dare you make me challenge things in my life!
Make the connections, dear."

"Make the connections"? The reason a woman can't get promoted is because her hubby looks at porn??

feminists hate normal non-feminist women as much as they hate men

I know quite a few feminists, none of whom hate men. The feminists I know hate men who are arseholes, but to call all men arseholes is a bit of a stretch. :o

Do we have to be all passive aggressive and say Oh do fuck off dear?

Or is "fuck off, you daft twat" fine too?

"The reason a woman can't get promoted is because her hubby looks at porn??"

Actually studies do show that the more men look at sexualised images of women the less seriously they take their non-sexual accomplishments.

So more like "The reason a woman doesn't get promoted is because someone else's hubby looks at porn"

HTH

I know we have to understand and analyse why some women are handmaidens but I do sometimes wonder if we infantilise women and place no expectations on them.

Judging by the feminist comments on #WomenAgainstFeminism I'd say feminists hate normal non-feminist women as much as they hate men

Sooooooo, not at all then? Feminists don't hate men, and only really fucking idiotic fuckheads believe they do.

Welcome back to Mumsnet btw, you have been a busy bee today, haven't you?

Anyhoo...

People have entirely the wrong idea about what feminism is and what it seeks to do.

There are some men who rather stupidly believe that feminists want to subjugate men, but that's mostly because they spend so much time actively subjugating women that they believe it's the only way to get what you want in life.

No one is trying to bring men down. We're trying to bring down patriarchy, which does men just as much harm as it does women. I don't hate anti-feminist women, I do pity them though, they have swallowed to KoolAid wholesale, probably mostly because they haven't experienced what can happen to women who dare make waves.

"So more like "The reason a woman doesn't get promoted is because someone else's hubby looks at porn""

ah internet porn, the perfect scapegoat for everything wrong with modern-society! Don't we all just love having something to blame?

" I don't hate anti-feminist women, I do pity them though"

Why not go over to Facebook's WomenAgainstFeminism's page and tell the 23,000+ anti-feminists on there you pity them all? I'm sure they are all desperately in need of a feminist's pity.

I wonder why Virenall is so desperate for attention from feminist women.

I think you get better results by challenging the behaviour while (at least appearing to) sympathise with the individual for their reasons for that behaviour. That way people are more likely to think a little deeper about their choices.

In general, if I feel someone is criticising me as a person, I find it difficult to consider that actually maybe I might be in the wrong. Because I'm human, and tend to start from the assumption that I am sensible and moral and lots of other things that maybe not every decision actually stands up to.

So if you say "I can see why you feel the need to wear high heels and skimpy clothes in your current job, but perhaps you need to consider why you feel that holding up cards between bouts in a wrestling match is a good career choice and what it suggests to the spectators about the place of women in society?" is maybe going to get you more attention than "You are pandering to male expectations and hindering the downfall of the patriarchy"

Most women don't think of themselves as an enslaved population, and a lot of women don't think of themselves as 'feminists' because the word gets a lot of bad press, even if they fully believe they ought to be treated as equal by society.

Right, then.

I said it in another thread,and I'll say it in this one (because this is how it is): cailindana has nailed it.

The binary approach that presents men as the oppressors and women as the oppressed is over simplistic - to the point of playing into anti-feminist arguments.

CKD, have you read Andrea Dworkin's Right Wing Women?

The examples of comments that you give in your OP are also quite simplistic. I would have no qualms dismissing such comments and wouldn't feel that they merited 'sympathy' - but I'm thinking that perhaps you're also thinking about more subtle, complex behaviour (and I'm wondering if you're thinking of 'non-feminist' rather than anti-feminist behaviour?)

virenall - if you view feminism and women who want to talk about it with such contempt - which clearly you do, then why the fuck are you wasting your time on this forum?

"Most women don't think of themselves as an enslaved population"

And I suppose you do. I'm also guessing you are British, white and middle-class?

virenall Why do you suppose that?

"I'm also guessing you are British, white and middle-class?"

WTF?! Why are you being so racist and classist? You're seriously checking people's race and class before you decide whether their opinion is worthy or not? How bonkers!

Privileges come with being white and middle class and living in a stable, rich developed country like Scotland or England. And yet you see yourself as "enslaved"???

"Most women don't think of themselves as an enslaved population"

This is a neutral statement. Why do you assume from it that I believe myself to be enslaved?

You are leaping to an assumption about me, actually to several assumptions about me, on the basis of a single, entirely neutral, statement that I have chosen to make on a feminist thread.

Do you think maybe you're just a little bit biased?

And you are a feminist?

virenall, you haven't answered my last question, but I'd like to ask you another one (and I'd appreciate it if you answer). Where are you posting from? And why are you so angry? And why is your anger directed at posters on this forum?

It seems that you're trying to point out that there are parts of the world where there are more glaring and extreme social injustices than those in the UK. Is that what you're trying to do? If that's what you're trying to do, why not start a thread about those injustices? Why not try to address, or at least discuss them more directly? Why, instead, are you spleen-venting at posters on this forum?

By the way, virenall, there is much discussion on this forum about intersectionality. It's not something of which FWR posters are unaware.

But please, virenall, tell us about the injustices that bother you.

(And to other posters, I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, as clearly it's off topic. I want to know why virenall has said what s/he has, though.)

Virenall, WHY do you crave our attention so much? Can you answer my question please.

If it helps, July, virenall has mentioned in other posts on FWR, of which there are quite a number today, that's he's male.