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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Joan Rivers

18 replies

kickassangel · 06/09/2014 14:40

Just wondering if anyone wants to give any thoughts to her. I am conflicted about her as a role model. She was hugely successful in a field that is very unwelcoming of women, but had so much plastic surgery that she hardly stands out as a feminist role model.

She also just seemed to be rude rather than funny, but I think the shock value of a woman saying some of the stuff she did was probably a big part of her humor, which as a British younger woman I don't get.

Was she a feminist icon?

OP posts:
scarletforya · 06/09/2014 14:48

I think she was, first really funny female comedian.

I loved her humor, although she did sometimes make me gasp. She definitely sailed close to the wind at times. I'm disappointed with the Israel rant. It was weird that it came just before her death like that. I find it troubling.

I'm really sad though. I watched loads of the footage about her life and career. She was as scathing about herself as others. She often used her husband's suicide as comedy material for example.

She was a funny, intelligent, engaging woman though. I saw her stand up live once and she was hilarious. I loved fashion police, I don't think she'll be replaced. She was one of a kind.

BeerTricksPotter · 06/09/2014 14:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FuckOffWeasel · 06/09/2014 15:01

Intelligent strong trail blazing woman. Absolutely vile an misogynist in the way she discussed other women. also hadn't been funny for a couple of decades Wouldn't call her a feminist but won't judge her too harshly as she wasn't as bad as most of the male comedians in her time and women always get judged more harshly than men. (Thinking of the way people spoke about Maggie Thatcher after her death, people were disgusting about her in a very special way that reeked of misogyny to me.)

FuckOffWeasel · 06/09/2014 15:04

Maybe you can be a "feminist icon" without being a feminist though as you are still making the way easier for women after you?

Also the plastic surgery thing is really a non issue, we could as easily say women who wear make up or dresses or wax their leg hair aren't feminists based on them falling for female ideals of beauty.

Wishyouwould · 06/09/2014 15:37

I'm disappointed with the Israel rant. It was weird that it came just before her death like that. I find it troubling.

In what way do you mean troubling scarlet? I only ask because a friend said exactly the same thing.

FuckOffWeasel · 06/09/2014 15:43

Possible dementia at her age? Don't think it would be related to what killed her though as that was from surgery wasn't it?

LineRunner · 06/09/2014 15:48

I think it's possible to be female and defend Israel politically (no matter how wrong that may be perceived to be) without having dementia.

That may be a feminist point.

ihatethecold · 06/09/2014 15:54

I cant see what all the fuss is about, she isnt funny, she was just incredibly bitchy.

FuckOffWeasel · 06/09/2014 15:54

Sorry, I was just saying I think that was what Scarlett was getting at (she might not be) but I don't think it was the case and that if it was it would be unrelated to death anyway

I don't actually think she was suffering from dementia. Too sharp for that.

scarletforya · 06/09/2014 16:06

I wasn't thinking dementia really. But who knows...? Just I was suprised, ver suprised as a fan of hers, if those were her real views. I can't think of any other explanation though. I mean it wasn't supposed to be funny, I don't think. It just spoiled her memory for me I think. The things she said were very spiteful and wrong.

But I dunno, maybe there was some dementia.....or something..

Original poster
kickassangel · 06/09/2014 16:09

Yes, I think someone can help pave the way for other women without specifically doing it as an act of feminism. I think it's still true that women who get out there in public are helping to normalize the concept if 'woman' being a public figure so on that count she was an icon.

Can you imagine a conversation between her and Jo Brand though? Both can be so scathing and have such different appearances, which are a part of their public persona.

OP posts:
FuckOffWeasel · 06/09/2014 16:14

I'm actually trying to imagine how that would go down now kickass Grin It would be quite good actually!

ooh just had an idea for a thread

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 06/09/2014 16:51

She was a hateful person and I'm surprised at how many want to claim someone who was so outspokenly hateful and supporting of so many types of oppression as part of any progressive justice movement.

I don't even get why people would hold her up as a trailblazer when there were far earlier ones that really opened things up and made room for everyone. Moms Mabley was a remarkable woman who fought to open comedy for so many people, and so many people claim inspired and helped them into comedy, who is still widely ignored in comedic history, Rivers only fought for her and her own. Just because someone did it a while ago to open it for themselves doesn't mean they actually made progress for anyone else or should be lauded for making any progress. They're just used as a token by the system to prove things have gotten better when nothing really has been done.

PetulaGordino · 06/09/2014 17:01

i didn't find her brand of comedy funny at all

but i want to see more women in male-dominated professions, and that of course has to include women who i don't agree with

while women who really blazed a trail for other women and supported them should definitely be better-remembered, and i agree with the problem of using one person as a token when things haven't changed at all, but in terms of "Rivers only fought for her and her own", why shouldn't she? i don't think that all women should have to take on the burden of being the spokesperson or activist for all women in their profession - it feels like yet another stick to beat them with if they don't. if (like JR's comedy) i feel that something they do or say actively harms other women then i will criticise that.

FuckOffWeasel · 06/09/2014 17:18

I think being in the public eye for young girls to see and think "I could do that" is trial blazing and is important. Why she did it was irrelevant. You just need to see yourself represented to think you can do something.

Original poster
kickassangel · 06/09/2014 17:45

I agree with Petula that if I want to see women in public spaces I can't start censoring which are the right ones. Is just like to see a fair representation of women as 50% of the population.

But then I just dislike so much of what she said that I find it really hard to live with.

OP posts:
PetulaGordino · 06/09/2014 17:49

i do agree kickass - and it's a problem if the few/only women in a particular public arena are cut from the same cloth too

F0ssil · 07/09/2014 10:41

I think they probably were her real views. In the same way that before 9/11 some "irish americans" used to send money over to the ira.

I found her very very funny, although I did also feel conflicted listening to some of her jokes where she asked women on the front row where there education had got them and then told them to give blow jobs to rich men. Maybe it's more of a commentary on how men benefit more directly and absolutely (salary-wise) from a good education than women do.

I still love her despite the fact that I don't agree with every thought/view she had.

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