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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would anyone like to talk about Judith Butler with me?

361 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/08/2014 17:31

I'm currently trying to get to grips with her writing. I read most of 'Gender Trouble' a while ago, in a rather hurried and sceptical mood. More recently, I've had a look at Undoing Gender. And now I'm trying to re-read Gender Trouble properly (there's an edition out with a new introduction where she explains how she's moved on a bit in response to criticisms, which is useful).

I'm really struggling, to be honest. My gut feeling is it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes, and I'm not keen - but I really want to give it some proper thought.

An example of what bugs me in a knee-jerk way is this sort of passage (from near the start of Undoing Gender):

If a decade or two ago, gender discrimination applied tacitly to women, that no longer serves as the exclusive framework for understanding its contemporary usage. Discrimination against women continues – especially poor women and women of color, if we consider the differential levels of poverty and literacy not only in the United States, but globally – so this dimension of gender discrimination remains crucial to acknowledge. But gender now also means gender identity, a particularly salient issue in the politics and theory of transgenderism and transsexuality.

I just can't help feeling this is an incredibly, even insultingly, privileged point of view? I mean, of course gender discrimination continues! She says it as if it's just in its dying gasp, but isn't it a huge issue?

Would anyone like to help me understand as I read?

Btw, I will totally understand if this thread dies a death, so don't worry!

OP posts:
BuffyBotRebooted · 16/09/2014 19:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

manlyalmondcakes · 16/09/2014 20:41

But that is to bring back two social theories that surely have been debunked and are no longer believed in by any of the people on this thread - functionalism and social evolution.

Not everything serves a purpose that makes society work or learn more, and we are not on some march into the future where each generation knows more than the one before and is somehow closer to working stuff out.

Lots of societies simply got it wrong and ceased to exist. Lots of knowledge has been lost and we may never be able to recreate it. We are all now in a historically unique situation of living in a globalised connected world, in some sense for the first time there is one society, but that just makes the stakes higher. We now have the capacity, if we get it wrong, to destroy a society that is the whole world.

And even if that were not the case, or if we look at societies that are distinct from each other, it just isn't good enough to say it's complex so we can't make sense of it. We have to make sense of it now to the best of our ability now, to deliver as much justice as we can to the current population, and to create as much justice as we can for those yet to come as our actions have a huge impact on them.

If you are a Mandaean, sitting in Iraq now, with 2000 years of cultural continuity behind you, knowing that a year from now your entire population may have been wiped off the face of the earth by genocide, there is, if that genocide happens, no future point where your culture develops some fuller knowledge.

If it was us. If it was Britain this was happening to, or our daughters that were being forced into brothels, forcibly impregnated, if it was us who were going to be eradicated, I don't think we'd think working it out later was okay. I'm sure that none of us think we can do nothing, so if we're doing something now, the issue of paying attention to the real (or the truth) can't be deferred.

Beachcomber · 16/09/2014 21:05

What DonkeySkin says about postmodernism and Aboriginal people really resonates with me and I think we can draw parallels with women/feminism.

  1. Women as victims of male violence/domination. Butler criticizes MacKinnon for assigning victim status to women and creating a "paradigm of victimisation". So women pointing out that male violence exists, and that women and children are often on the end of it, and are therefore victims of male violence, is to be countered. Because it is oppressive. Although what it is to be countered with, I don't quite know. I'm guessing liberalism's old favorite; 'agency'. I guess the perpetrators of the violence stop being called perpetrators and get called 'agents' or 'subjects'.
  1. 'Narratives' (always plural!). One person's narrative is another person's propaganda/lie/tool of oppression/normalizing of oppressive acts and structures/invisibleizing of the oppressed (who generally don't get to dominate 'narratives'). It is oppressive for the oppressed to not listen to and take into consideration their oppressor's narratives.
  1. The idea that describing oppressive society and how it functions is an oppressive thing to do. This one is very cunning. It turns those who speak out about oppression into the baddies, the oppressors.
  1. Imperialism. The idea that it is imperialist and therefore oppressive for any woman to say anything about women as a collective ever. (Bit like number 3 really.)
  1. Censorship. Censorship is always bad (because narratives!). This means that women who think that pornography should not be protected as free speech under legislation such as the First Amendment are anti freedom (and oppressive! and guilty of denying subjects! their agency! and coercively assigning victim! status to other women).
  1. The individual. We are all only individuals. With some of being more individuals than others (notably the oppressed). The idea of class is reductive and essentialist (and oppressive!). And it isn't very fun, subversive and hip.
  1. The Truth. Doesn't exist because narratives/agency/individuals/relativism/etc. It is true however that the oppressed are; oppressive, imperialist, anti freedom, anti choice, anti agency, anti liberty, anti free speech, and pro a big oppressive state.

This list is not exhaustive. But for me there is a running theme; that it the gaslighting of the oppressed by telling them that they are the oppressors. A bit like what happens in abusive relationships really.

Beachcomber · 16/09/2014 21:08

that is the gaslighting

OutsSelf · 16/09/2014 21:42

God, so much to process. Just want to clear up something simple that I am sure of though - Butler's argument against censorship is not an issue of free.speech, it is that the effect of censorship.is to proliferate the thing you are trying to censor. It's not that she doesn't want the end of.images of female.sexual abuse, it's that she thinks describing it as pornography and banning it will produce a desire.for.it and is.part of how.it comes to eroticise sexual discrimination. In other words, it produces the sexuality it wishes to ban. This is not to say that criticised images of.female.sexual abuse should be tolerated but that there needs to be a means of.combating them which doesn't add to the social and erotic power.

BuffyBotRebooted · 16/09/2014 21:51

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 16/09/2014 22:03

Ugh, eroticised, not criticised images of female.sexual abuse

Beachcomber · 17/09/2014 09:05

This post is going to be loooonnnngggg. Mainly because it contains some Butler quotes.

I don't think that Butler's position on pornography is that simple, OutsSelf. And even it it was, what does she propose that we actually do? I mean if she thinks that MacKinnon's analysis is wrong? What does Butler think we should be doing instead of challenging the First Amendment? Butler always seems keen to take down other women's (especially MacKinnon's) efforts to use the available tools to actually do something - so what is her great idea then?? Seems like Butler finds just about everything that women want to actually do about oppression to be a bad idea because doing anything about oppression inevitably makes that oppression worse. Gosh darn it. That rather puts a spanner in the works doesn't it? Thanks for the positive attitude Butler. Now what do you suggest that we actually do? Oh, yes, use that incredible tool against social injustice and violent systems of oppression; parody. Hmm

I don't think that Butler has anything like the problem with pornography that you suggest. Bizarrely, for one who gives so much consideration to 'performativity', Butler doesn't think that pornography is performative. She thinks it is phantasmatlc.

Some quotes from Excitable Speech by Butler.

Page 18. Significantly, MacKinnon's argument against pornography has moved from a conceptual reliance on a perlocutionary model to an illocutionary one. In the work of Mari. Matsuda, hate speech is understood not only to act upon its listener (a perlocutionary scene), but to contribute to the social constitution of the one addressed (and, hence, to become part of a process of social interpellation). The listener is understood to occupy a social position or to have become synonymous with that position, and social positions themselves are understood to be situated in a static and hierarchical relation to one another. By virtue of the social position he or she occupies, then, the listener is injured as a consequence of that utterance. The utterance also enjoins the subject to reoccupy a subordinate social position. According to this view, such speech reinvokes and reinscribes a structural relation of domination, and constitutes the linguistic occasion for the reconstitution of that structural domination. Although sometimes this view on hate speech enumerates a set of consequences that such speech produces (a perlocutionary view of the matter), there are other formulations of this position where the force of the performative is secured through conventional means (an illocutionary model). In Mari Matsuda's formulation, for instance, speech does not merely reflect a relation of social domination; speech enacts domination, becoming the vehicle through which that social structure is reinstated. According to this illocutionary model, hate speech constitutes its addressee at the moment of its utterance; it does not describe an injury or produce one as a consequence; it is, in the very speaking of such speech, the performance of the injury itself, where the injury is understood as social subordination.

What hate speech does, then, is to constitute the subject in a subordinate position. But what gives hate speech the power to constitute the subject with such efficacy? Is hate speech as felicitous as it appears in this account, or are there faultlines that make its constituting power less felicitous than the above description would imply?

I wish to question for the moment the presumption that hate speech always works, not to minimize the pain that is suffered as a consequence of hate speech, but to leave open the possibility that its failure is the condition of a critical response. If the account of the injury of hate speech forecloses the possibility of a critical response to that injury, the account confirms the totalizing effects of such an injury. Such arguments are often useful in legal contexts, but are counter-productive for the thinking of nonstate-centered forms of agency and resistance.

Even if hate speech works to constitute a subject through discursive means, is that constitution necessarily final and effective? Is there a possibility of disrupting and subverting the effects produced by such speech, a faultline exposed that leads to the undoing of this process of discursive constitution?What kind of power is attributed to speech such that speech is figured as having the power to constitute the subject with such success?

Matsuda's argument presumes that a social structure is enunciated at the moment of the hateful utterance; hate speech reinvokes the position of dominance, and reconsolidates it at the moment of utterance. As the linguistic rearticulation of social domination, hate speech becomes, for Matsuda, the site for the mechanical and predictable reproduction of power. In some ways, the question of mechanical breakdown or "misfire" and of the unpredictability of speech is precisely what Austin repeatedly emphasizes when he focuses on the various ways in which a speech act can go wrong. More generally, however, there are reasons to question whether a static notion of "social structure" is reduplicated in hate speech, or whether such structures suffer destructuration through being reiterated, repeated, and rearticulated. Might the speech act of hate speech be understood as less efficacious, more prone to innovation and subversion, if we were to take into account the temporal life of the "structure" it is said to enunciate? If such a structure is dependent upon its enunciation for its continuation, then it is at the site of enunciation that the question of its continuity is to be posed. Can there be an enunciation that discontinues that structure, or one ,that subverts that structure through its repetition in speech? As an invocation, hate speech is an act that recalls prior acts, requiring a future repetition to endure. Is there a repetition that might disjoin the speech act from its supporting conventions such that its repetition confounds rather than consolidates its injurious efficacy?

Page 20 In MacKinnon's recent work, Only Words, pornography is construed as both speech and conduct, indeed, as "performative utterance;' and is understood not only to "act on" women in injurious ways (a perlocutionary claim), but to constitute, through representation, the class of women as an inferior class (an illocutionary claim). The burning cross is understood to be analogous to the pornographic utterance to the extent that both of them represent and enact an injury. But can the illocutionary claim be made about pornography as easily as it can about the burning cross? The theory of representation and, indeed, the theory of performativity at work differs in each of these cases. I will argue that, taken generically, the visual text of pornography cannot "threaten" or "demean" or "debase" in the same way that the burning cross can. To suggest that both examples instantiate the same kind of verbal conduct is not only a mistake in judgment, but the exploitation of the sign of racial violence for the purposes of enhancing, through a metonymical slippage, the putatively injurious power of pornography.

Page 22 Similarly, MacKinnon's appeal to the state to construe pornography as performative speech and, hence, as the injurious conduct of representation, does not settle the theoretical question of the relation between representation and conduct, but collapses the distinction in order to enhance the power of state intervention over graphic sexual representation. In many ways, this very extension of state power, however, comes to represent one of the greatest threats to the discursive operation of lesbian and gay politics. Central to such politics are a number of "speech acts" that can be, and have been, construed as offensive and, indeed, injurious conduct: graphic self-representation, as in Mapplethorpe's photography; explicit self-declaration, such as that which takes place in the practice of coming out; and explicit sexual education, as in AIDS education.

Beachcomber · 17/09/2014 09:16

And from this interview.

LK: MacKinnon was even on the cover of the Sunday Times Magazine.

JB: And she was ABC's person of the week. It's very scary to me because it makes feminism into a position which asserts the systematic domination of women by men, distills both those categories into very fixed places of power, sees women as always in positions of relative powerlessness, as victims who then only get reclaim power through recourse to the state—a very frightening prospect. The attack on the First Amendment is horrible for anyone who cares about the rise of censorship on the right, for anybody who cares about sodomy laws; it just strikes me as a very reactionary position. And this kind of procensorship feminism is implicitly based on a very anti-psychoanalytic understanding of sexuality and subjectivity as well.

LK: I'm curious how formative those early-'80s debates around pornography and sexual representation were in terms of your own work.

JB: Very much so. I'm trying to think how to account for that. I think I took the feminist critique of pornography very seriously in the early '80s, but then became very fully persuaded that it was absolutely wrong. One of the aspects of it that alarmed me was the way in which psyches and fantasy life are described by people like Andrea Dworkin. She actually believes that pictures have the power to form psyches and desires, and to produce actions in an almost behavioristic way. It struck me that she wants to police not only representations but the ways people think, desire, and fantasize; she wants to obliterate the ethical distinctions between fantasy, representation, and action.

JB: Pornography replays relations of social power: but this replaying is phantasmatic and not mimetic. In some ways, pornography “represents” uninhabitable positions, hyperbolic ideals, and sometimes offers the occasion for a viewing that compensates for a lived sense of sexual failure.

DonkeySkin · 17/09/2014 14:19

If the account of the injury of hate speech forecloses the possibility of a critical response to that injury, the account confirms the totalizing effects of such an injury.

WTF does this even mean? It seems like a very sly way of saying (yet again) that describing oppression is what produces oppression.

Look, I have to concede that I haven't read her extensively, but everything I have read of Butler is just straight-up anti-feminism, clothed in pseudo-feminist language.

It's very scary to me because it makes feminism into a position which asserts the systematic domination of women by men...

If you can't acknowledge that men do, in fact, systematically dominate women what bloody good is your feminism? What's the point of being a feminist at all if you deny this basic fact and you find women who point it out 'very scary'?

...distills both those categories into very fixed places of power, sees women as always in positions of relative powerlessness, as victims who then only get reclaim power through recourse to the state—a very frightening prospect.

And there she is again, implying (as Beach pointed out) that feminists who try to effect systemic change for women are the real oppressors. She is basically saying here that it is illegitimate for women to involve themselves in making laws and policy. Women are half the citizens of any state and we have every right to craft laws and policies that work in the interests of women. How dishonest and blatantly anti-feminist to imply that women using the mechanisms of law and politics to crowbar resources and justice for women out of the government and/or legal system is a 'frightening prospect' that makes them just like the overlords of an autocratic state. As if Dworkin and MacKinnon or any group of feminists have ever held that kind of power.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/01/2015 20:19

I just wanted to come back to this and say thank you to everyone. As people posting obviously noticed, at some stage my brain just gave up, and I couldn't follow it all. But I have now come back and I sat down today going through the thread slowly, and I think I understand a little better now what the different arguments are. So, thank you very much! And particularly outs, buffy, beach and almond for taking so much time over it.

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