Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

[CrewElla]

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

One of the things that has struck me as I was reading a step parenting thread on here was the animosity towards the term ‘birth mum’. I completely understand the animosity towards it as a woman with a child is simply ‘mum’ – there is no need to preface it with anything.

Step mum does have to be prefaced with ‘step’ because as much as those parents may wish to be considered ‘mum’, it simply isn’t the same as the original role. That’s not to say that they don’t fulfil a mothering role but it is one other than the principle mother role.

Everyone seems to get that it is simply disrespectful to refer to the biological mum as anything other than ‘mum’ but women are meant to suck it up when told that they are no longer women but are now ciswomen.
I think it perfectly valid for women to reject being redefined as ciswomen especially when done by other without their consent.

And on a final point, I can’t help wondering where all the transmen are in the current frenzy of transactivism. I don’t see transactivists demanding that transmen must be allowed to use male only spaces ( possibly because of a recognition that they might be vulnerable). Are women, transwomen and transmen all meant to share women only spaces and if so, why doesn’t transactivism recognise that the hypocrisy inherent in their demands that transwomen be protected from men whilst remaining biologically part of that group ? Or is it simply that transmen are not considered threatening as they are biological women ?

I just cannot accept that any transperson who has no intention whatsoever to consider or go through GRS can expect the concessions that they are demanding from a group that they wish to join. That to me demonstrates an incredible sense of entitlement with a complete lack of empathy and awareness.

With woman, it does come from wifman but the root of the wif part is like weiblich in German - female (like midwife meaning 'with woman'). Werman was the male equivalent and I'd rather reclaim the usage of that, and shift away from male as default than do away with woman meaning adult human female. I quite like it.

I am all for reclaiming werman.

Blistory I think it's probably the same reason there is such a thing as the word, 'fag-hag' There is no equivalent for straight men/lesbian women is there? Well, 'lesbian' porn, I suppose.

Didn't know that Super and it does make it better. I shall start referring to DH as Werman immediately (it has shades of Wolverine for me, oddly).

bringing etymology into a feminist discussion is very good, I like this.

Sorry struggling to read through with 'fab' New mobile site, but Garlic I think I love you.
I also seem to be getting the feeling that being trans is in some way anti feminist, unless we are going down some ancient woman as goddess fertility whatnot route. (Scuse the half formed ideas but I'm trying to post before my phone freezes (again)).

If we accept the trans route as totally valid, with or without the male style entitlement. Then are we not accepting that any kind of equality, that erasure of all the stuff that separates us and make women, lesser and other, is impossible? And therefore capitulating totally to the patriarchy?

Transmen are virtually invisible, aren't they? There is Chaz Bono, who seems to be very politically conservative and homophobic, and Stephen Ira (the 'son' of Annette Bening and Warren Beatty), who is one of the most vicious and threatening opponents of Michfest.

I think the position of transmen highlights a lot of the hypocrisy of the transactivist movement. You don't see transmen demanding entry to men-only clubs because as women they don't have socialised entitlement. If a men's club was legally obliged to allow entry to transmen I doubt if it would be a very welcoming and safe space for the transmen. Can you imagine a woman announcing she is becoming a transman and her husband being expected to stick by her and accept being in a gay marriage with gay sex or else be classed as an unfeeling bigot?

I haven't been watching Big Brother but I have seen some of the reactions to Kellie on social media. People who don't usually think about transgender issues are used to being presented with transwomen who perform femininity quite well and who have a camp sensibility and Kellie is the first 'non-passing' transwoman they have been faced with. There is a lot of confusion with many people thinking Kellie is a hoax, or having some kind of breakdown. A lot of people have never thought about a transwoman being homophobic or attracted to women or oozing male socialisation. Maybe if transgenderism gets a lot more mainstream exposure like this more people will start confronting the issues it raises.

Can you imagine a woman announcing she is becoming a transman and her husband being expected to stick by her and accept being in a gay marriage with gay sex or else be classed as an unfeeling bigot?

I've never even thought about this before.
Have you ever come across a blog called naefearty? It's really interesting, it's written by a woman whose partner revealed that he was transgender during the course of their relationship. There's a post here which gives an overview of the development of his transgenderism and its impact on their relationship.

I have seen at least one case of man sticking by his trans-man partner. only one, mind you.

Re that blog: it raises a number of interesting questions. On one hand I struggle with the idea that any of us should be placing boundaries on what our partners do; surely we have to either accept their individual choices or decide we don't want to (and leave them). But I completely accept that given the power relations between men and women that might be easier said than done. I've also seen too many wives do their duty and stand by their partners, while these same partners take step after step toward their transition, all the while assuring their wives that it's ok - they're still the same person. And then, after having milked their wives support through their journey leave them hung out to dry. It's a horrible thing to do, and utterly male.

I think one of the reasons transwomen and their rights are becoming more visible now is also the rise of the men's rights culture. The world is full of middle-class, straight, white, able-bodied men who think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, the pendulum has swung too far and everything is pc gone mad. These men genuinely, genuinely believe that they are the most oppressed, most-discriminated group in the world. Becoming a transwoman allows these members of the most privileged group to claim they are, in fact, the most oppressed, most suicidal, most at-risk group in the world and everybody else had better tread carefully around them or be seen as the bad guys. It's really galling to see middle-class, straight, white, able-bodied men claiming genuinely discriminated people are picking on them and no-one calls it for the bullshit it is.

Can you imagine gay men being asked to tolerate a cotton ceiling concept? No way would they, and who would have the effrontery to ask them to?

I've also seen too many wives do their duty and stand by their partners, while these same partners take step after step toward their transition, all the while assuring their wives that it's ok - they're still the same person. And then, after having milked their wives support through their journey leave them hung out to dry

If you're still in touch with any of those wives you should point them in the direction of naefearty. I think I heard from her that it is very very difficult to find support as the female partner of a man who is transitioning - it's a pretty unique experience and it's hard to find other people to talk to about it honestly.

I think people express their wishes for boundaries on their partners' behaviour all the time. 'Don't leave your socks on the floor', 'Gonnae no leave the TV on when you're going tae sleep', 'erm, darling, I'm not sure leaving me with a 6-week-old baby to motorcycle round the world is the best plan' etc.
Yeah people can always split up but tbh it's often very hard for women to leave men - we can't always afford it and there's pressure to stay within a relationship and not be a single mother.

I think it's entirely reasonable not to want the father of your children to start saying to them he's now a woman which here means wearing dresses and talking about womanly feelings.

I found this blogpost and the comments from Dorothy Mantooth very interesting as regards being in a relationship with a man who transitions.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/a-member-of-my-family-decided-that-he-was-really-a-woman/

I've been thinking about the issues around people's claim to the word "woman" - transwomen saying that when someone refuses to call them a "woman" it erases them. It reminded me of something that happened years ago. I was about 19 or 20 and my aunt had one of those trashy books by Linda Goodman (?) about horoscopes and what your starsign said about your personality/relationships etc. There was a section for each starsign and each one was divided into three sections: one for men, one for women, one for children.
I picked it up and looked in the table of contents for "Leo woman," turned to that chapter and started reading it and my aunt saw and went MAD. She really kicked off and told me I had no right to call myself a woman because I didn't have children. Nothing to do with my age: she didn't mention my age. The thing that excluded me from womanhood was the fact that I hadn't borne children. Did it shake me to the core and make me feel "erased"? Nope. I just thought "Heh. Alright."

I'm nearly 40 now and I still don't have kids, so I guess that by her definition I'm still not a woman. I still don't feel erased.

Yeah I get misgendered all the time. I don't feel erased. I feel relieved. mostly, and occasionally amused.

When I had short hair and wore leather jackets all the time I was continually 'misgendered', I think I'm still here, didn't become transparent or anything. 'misgendering' has been a staple of comedy for the last, what 2,500 years (at least), nobody is erased. Sometimes it's slightly annoying, but it doesn't make you disappear in a poof of purple glitter!

I think the difference is though, that I have no fucking clue what is meant by the term 'feeling like a woman'. I just am one, because I have various womanly sexual organs, none of which wander about my body, and 2 X chromosomes and have been treated like a second class human for a large proportion of my life. Except for those times when people thought I was male, which was a really odd experience.

A woman I know is conventionally attractive and dresses very fashionably. However, she has close-cropped hair and does a job that requires her to wear blokey clothes and drive a work-van. On several occasions she has been driving around at night and been pulled over by the police. She says there is always a moment of surprise when the police realise it is a woman driving the van. Some of the officers have just come out and said it 'Oh, I'm sorry miss. We saw you driving by and we thought you were a teenage boy who'd nicked a van.' That's an actual example of misgendering which causes a woman to be stopped repeatedly by the police but she just shrugs it off as one of those things.

I know quite a lot of women who get misgendered, none of them 'butch', just women with short hair who prefer wearing jeans and a t-shirt instead of dresses. Some of them find it amusing, some a bit insulting, but no-one has a tantrum about it.

I have only been misgendered once, when I was 19, and I have no idea how it happened because at the time I looked like Shirley Temple with a growth-spurt.

Dorothy Mantooth is amazing! Thank you so much for the link, CK.

Fascinating discussion. So many great posts on here. I just wanted you to know that at least one lurker is reading.

SuperLoudPoppingAction: Yeah I get misgendered all the time. I don't feel erased. I feel relieved. mostly, and occasionally amused.

These feelings have been with them since a very early age, and there's a huge amount of guilt attached to them, so when they do finally face up to things and get 'misgendered' it isn't really the same thing as when someone who has no such issues does, I don't think.

I'm not denying that male entitlement plays a huge part in not only their decision to transition, but also their reponse to being misgendered, but transition or trans feelings are not not something they ever wanted, and you only need to look at suicide rates to see how desperately unhappy they are. Should that influence how you treat trans people? That's genuinely a question of personal ethics, as the whole 'be nice to me or i'll commit suicide' rhetoric that trans resort to is undoubtedly the language of abuse.

Obviously this is a massively complex issue, and there are huge implications for feminism. But it's my belief we should treat trans people as we do others with MH issues: with compassion. I know many people say they don't why they should indulge these people's fantasies, but I can hand on heart say it's only because I was either percieved as being female, or believed I was percieved as such, that I was able to reach a point where I could accept I wasn't one. Of course as someone who isn't female I can say that; the impact on me (even as someone who suports feminism) is nothing like the same as it is for women.

Thank you, Andie, you bring a perspective that I've not been exposed to and I appreciate your posts.

I love that this seems to be the only offshoot of feminism where people feel free to assume levels of gender dysphoria and acceptance of assigned gender roles in others. I'd have thought it'd be the opposite. Hohum.