Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

[CrewElla]

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

"Trans women would probably say they are women"

And they would be wrong. The definition of "woman" is "adult human female". A transwoman is not female of the human species, and therefore is not a woman.

DD is 9 years old. She is female but she is not an adult. If she says "I am a woman, mummy", I will gently tell her "No darling. You are not a woman because you are not yet an adult".

Similarly, it is possibly to gently answer the transwoman who says "I am a woman" with "Sorry but no, you are not female and hence not a woman. You are a transwoman".

It cannot be transphobic to say this, just as it is not ageist to tell DD she is not a woman. It is just a statement of fact.

TheSpork - I said "XX" for the sake of simplicity, as I'm sure most people here understood.

If you need higher precision: People with Y chromosomes are considered genetic males, whether they are XY, XXY, or XYY. People without Y chromosomes are genetic females, whether they are XX or XXX. It really isn't as ambiguous as you portray it.

'Because the vast majority of the population don't know and guess what they are based on their legal classification and genitals.'

Right but 79% of women have babies in the UK, so it's a pretty safe bet at that point.

Being a woman isn't just about genitals - I hate that transactivists seem to want to reduce things to genitals. It's about growing up with an awareness that you are vulnerable to pregnancy,

And spork, you get that a great many people objecting to people capable of impregnating women being in women-only spaces are lesbians? Lesbians really ought to be able to say for ourselves who we will and will not consider sleeping with.

Thank you Andie for posting on this thread - I've really appreciated having your point of view on here.

During the week I saw someone on the tube who looked like John Prescott in a wig and a dress. I think she was probably trans because I doubt that any woman who was that ugly would draw attention to herself by wearing a lime green dress. Even if she was a born woman I would feel uncomfortable if she was in a women's changing room because she looked like someone who was born male. I hate that you really don't know who you can feel safe with.

Think you might just have missed the point a tad, queenstromba..........

My socialization did not include the push to be a mother or bride

of course it did.

A black person raised in a white family will not get white privilege because they don't present as white to the outside world. A man raised as a man would present as a man and male privilege would be bestowed on to him.

Intersex people are being used to make the point that trans people should have certain rights. NO one is trying to tell an intersex person that was raised as a woman she should be denied access to women's space, so it is a crap argument. I'm trying to tell the man with a penis who was raised as a man to stay the fuck out.

Hi I'm really sorry but I've found it a bit difficult to read all 450 comments or so! It's quite difficult to read all the comments, which really aren't anything I haven't heard before, so I admit there's been quite a lot of scrolling going on.

I'm really happy to talk with people about how I navigate nursing and personal care for people as someone who has transitioned, and talk about my own experience of being a nurse who was co-coercively assigned male at birth and then changed my body and gender presentation, although I don't personally identify as "transgender".

I also have children, live with my partner and we've been together for a long time, through a process of transition.

I noticed that there was some discussion about PTSD and survivors, and I'm also happy to talk about my own experiences and how I navigate triggers and distressing situations. I may not reply if I'm asked about things that are too personal or upsetting.

I'm really aware of how angry some people are, please try to remember that I can only speak for myself, and I'm not prepared to go into complex issues regarding epigenetics or essentialist / reductionist views of gender.

co-coercively assigned male at birth

Presumably this means you were born with a penis and xy chromosomes? Why do you consider it coercive to be classified as male in those circumstances since you can't possibly imagine you had a formed gender identity as a newborn?

Hi ApocalypseThen,

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear enough the first time and I'm really aware of how angry some people are. I'm not prepared to go into complex issues regarding epigenetics or essentialist / reductionist views of gender, and I'm certainly not happy to talk about my genetalia when I was assigned or my chomosomes.

I completely get that you're really averse to varying identities and expressions that you don't agree with, and you have very firm essentialist beliefs.

However what drew me to this thread was how worried people seemed to be about receiving care from people of different identities.

I'm really happy to stick to the this, and talk about how I navigate complex interpersonal relationships when delivering care, and my own experiences when I've been in vulnerable positions and received care from other genders/sexes.

Thank-you.

I haven't posted on this thread before, but I have actually read it, and there are some women on it who feel strongly that they do not wish to lose their right to choose not to have a smear test given by a man. It's not to do with "identities" it's to do with facts about what biological sex people are, and how women are vulnerable when they are undergoing a procedure which exposes their genitals. I'm surprised anyone thinks the rights of the HCP in this case trumps those of the patient.

you have very firm essentialist beliefs

What do you mean by this?

Oregano, don't bother mansplaining what you imagine I think. You brought up the issue of being coerced, it's perfectly legitimate to ask why you think this. You don't have to answer anything you don't want but don't bother thinking that you get to set the parameters for discussion.

Btw sex is observed not assigned. How could a HCP not know this?

I think nursing care is always a complex interpersonal process, especially wrt to intimate care and everyone brings with them their own personal worries and issues. A good part of nurse training covers consent and equality and diversity, and also treatment and personal care. Everyone is vulnerable, especially if they are worried or ill.

I've been a nurse for the NHS for quite a while, and I've seen it change quite a lot. Usually the most frequent issues I've seen are sexism, rascism and homophobia. There has also been quite a lot of classism.

Sometimes people clash for whatever reason, and whenever possible, whichever nursing team I've been on, if there's a problem we always try to find a solution within the team. It's usually just a personality clash but sometimes it's outright rascism/homophobia/transphobia in which case yes we are careful to take steps to try and look after both the member of staff and work out how best to care for the patient. If a patient expresses that they don't want someone looking after them, we will try to accommodate.

The trouble is, if you are rascist, homophobic, transphobic, sexist or classist, it's difficult so actually say so because it's culturally unacceptable!

Negotiating personal issues is difficult, and from my own personal experiences I know how difficult it is to say - "I'm really not comfortable with this", or "can someone else look after me" because you don't want to hurt the person's feelings, or appear to be a "difficult patient", so I can really sympathise.

Many people don't care / mind who is looking after them as long as the care is competent, professional and compassionate but if you're really frightened about trans* people, then the only thing I can think of is really to be open about it and specify who you would prefer to look after you.

if you're really frightened about trans people, then the only thing I can think of is really to be open about it and specify who you would prefer to look after you.*

Are you sure you're a nurse? Or even involved with personal care of anyone? I ask because you display a lack of basic knowledge of human interactions, not to mention the specific problems some people would have with receiving certain types of care from a person of the opposite sex. I find your posts to be a bit 'off'. Can't quite put my finger on it though. I'm sure as you posts more I'll get there.

Oregano, maybe if you did read the thread, you would have a clearer idea of what it's about and what 's been discussed, and also why some women don't want intimate examinations carried out by men? It's a bit off to not even be bothered to read the thread! You might even find it interesting

A woman not wanting a man as a health care professional is not the same as being racist, sexist or classist.

As long as this thread has been bumped, may I wade in?

I agree with the women here, and have read this whole thread as well others on the topic here over the past couple of years.

But every single time I talk about this with anyone in real life, I am treated with horror and as though I am a terrible, privileged, fearful person. I am quite an outspoken person and everyone who knows me knows that I care greatly about fairness and acceptance. But despite this track record, everyoneand I mean everyoneis quite happy to assume that I am speaking out of hatred when I dare to say that transactivists are dangerous and that we need to be careful.

I'm sorry if it sounds like this is all about me. I am a long time lurker but never post because I feel the rest of you say things better than I could. So I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on what normal women should be doing to protect the rights of WAB?

The thing is, I've always believed that the best way to handle political issues was to set an example to the people around me. And it has always worked. I can't stop all men making sexist jokes, for one smal example, but I have been able to create an environment around me where men and women dare to say that they aren't funny. Or, people can kind of get that women's unpaid labor is as valuable as men's paid labor. Or, the will admit that porn is probably not a positive force in society. (I'm not trying to take credit for shaping people's ideas. Just saying that in every case except the trans* one, there is some room for discussion.)

If there is zero room for discussion regarding the need for women to be recognized as women, where do we go from here?

This thread is a very powerful Badonna - when I started reading it, I was a liberal feminist, of the "porn and prostitution are a-OK" school of thinking. By the end I had seen the ultimate truth of 2nd wave feminism. An ultimately uncomfortable truth, but one that has opened my eyes to what it really means to be a woman.

I think we need to keep talking, keep speaking about how the only people who benefit in the world of transsexualism are heterosexual men. No women who have transitioned to become transsexual can compete in elite male sports. No men have been attacked by transsexual women in male only spaces. No men have been told that the sole representative of their sex in a particular field is actually a woman.

Yes Alyosha and if you raise any objections or try to discuss it in any objective way, you're as bad as a racist or a homophobe

I feel like a complete loon posting on this one as I'm well outside any frame of reference I have, and people are using words I thought I knew the meanings of in ways that would seem to indicate I don't.

Thing is I have a friend whom I have always known as a man, and he's been oscillating between wanting to be a woman, and staying as he is. I have endeavoured to be supportive of him and whatever he chooses, not that I have much in the way of insight to offer him, and it makes no odds to me either way.

However we have had a series of disagreements of late, in which I think I've only just convinced him feminism is not the enemy. Now bearing in my mind my rank ignorance of the subject, but is the salient problem here male violence again?

That is to say apparently men attack trans people frequently, and we're all aware of the general violence towards women and girls. If we tackled that problem first, would that give us the breathing room to reconcile the other stuff?

Hi Dervel...not sure I'm the best person to respond either, as I'm relatively new to this. I'll give it a bash though.

Your friend can never become a woman, because he is biologically male. The word "woman" has a meaning beyond identity; it defines us as the 50% of the species who can bear children. Because of this (amongst other things) women are the subject of systematic oppression due to our perceived child bearing capacity. Yes, we all know some women can't become pregnant. But the default assumption is that they CAN become pregnant, even if that's an incorrect assumption.

Feminism is about women and girls, and trying to make the world a safer, better place for women and girls. It is not about validating men's feelings that they are women or allowing them access to women's spaces. Allowing trans people access to women's spaces endangers women. Every man would be safer if they had access to female changing rooms, but women are not just collateral damage. We deserve our own spaces, free from the fear of violence. It is not a "who has it worse" competition. Allowing Trans men into our spaces will make us less safe (it has made women in the USA less safe - several sexual assaults and general acts of intimidating behaviour have been recorded there). That's why feminists should oppose it - because it makes women and girls less safe. We are feminism, not "everyone-ism".

I agree with a lot of what Alyosha has said, but would add a healthy or unhealthy, depending on your PoV dollop of male socialisation and therefore male entitlement.

Boys are socialised to believe that their voices count, TW who have been socialised as boys/men carry this kind of interaction on, even into their new gender role. It can be seen easily in the above, with a pp stating exactly what subjects were open for discussion, the parameters for that discussion and how those discussions would take place. When asked questions that didn't fit into those narrow boundaries, they became quite rude.

When people who have been socialised as boys trasition, they often carry that socialisation with them. They therefore believe that they should be able to define feminism, and wouldn't you know it? It revolves around their issues! Except of course it doesn't. but their socialisation has given them a feeling of entitlement to be heard, and when they feel they aren't being listened to, as they have been used to, they become verbally, and sometimes physically violent.

It's a real shame. TW do share a lot of the problems caused by a patriarchal society that women do. They also have a lot of their own problems to overcome, I don't think anyone would suggest that the decision to transition is taken lightly, or is easy, and they deserve everyone's support with that, but not at the expense of women.

Well apart from the obvious point that my perspective is ultimately irrelevant from being male (in all senses of the word). I am the last person who should define what occurs in female spaces.

What you've both said is reasonable and as far as I can see no phobia of anything there at all.

Also, I don't see any reason to define myself as cis. To do that would mean acceptance of the idea that women have a gendered ladybrain, and I certainly do no accept that. I'm a woman with a woman's body, reproductive capacity and chromosomes. I have a human brain heavily socialised to accept or recognise or perform certain actions as gendered.

There's nothing special about being a woman, it's something that just is. But it is what it is and I don't feel that I need to participate in any redefinition of what a makes a woman a woman.