Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

[CrewElla]

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

This is all hard thinking for someone who's having to ignore her ME while she moves house! I love your posts, gin and andie. Thank you.

On the point about mental illness, body dysphoria, and the effectiveness of physical alteration as treatment: for one thing, andie, I suspect you're exceptional. Like most less-enlightened people () I try to relate people's experiences to my own. Evidently I can't imagine what gender dysphoria feels like. My nearest experience is that of a teenage girl who, unconsciously trying to avoid becoming a woman, starved herself. At 6½ stone, so malnourished my body wasn't making enough blood, I saw rolls of fat on my reflected body and felt lard when I squeezed my emaciated flesh. (This went so deep, I only recently realised I am not fat in childhood photos )

If GRS is appropriate treatment for the psychological framework known as gender dysphoria, should people with the framework known as anorexia nervosa be offered liposuction and gastric bands??

Genuine question - does anyone know of trans-feminist activists who are working for feminist goals - i.e. ending male oppression of all women? I would be interested in blogs, links if you know of any?

The thread title references transfeminism, but is appears from my limited knowledge that this generally refers to raising awareness and increasing inclusion of trans women within feminism - I'm not so familiar with what transwoman are doing to advance the cause more generally.

Belle there's this blog.

Google "snowflake especial" if you're link wary. I really, really rate it.

andie

"The younger, gender-queer, pro-trans, po-mo, sex is a construct, 'masculinities and femininities', all seem to be saying this isn't an issue for them - so perhaps I am being old-fashioned/transphobic/whatthehellever. And maybe these are the first steps toward a genuinely equal society?"

I worry this, too

but it just doesn't feel real to me. Maybe they feel different from me because I am old and out of touch; maybe because I struggle to let go of past hurts long after the consciousness of them is useful to me; or maybe they just haven't had children or had time to really look at all this in an unvarnished, cynical, here I fucking am, way

whatwitch

"I don't believe that most younger feminist believe the stuff they are spouting, I think it feels unnatural for them to be on the other side of the "oppressed"."

I wonder this too. I wouldn't presume to suggest they don't believe it, I do wonder however if they are falling over themselves to be polite to the extent that they don't see the costs to themselves - costs that trendy educated white politicised (stereotypes alert) can afford better than most. feminists are always being accused of, for instance, racism, general failures of intersectionality. Maybe this has been chosen as the moment to leap on the bandwagon and say "no it isn't the case that we don't give a shit about anyone else, honestly!"

Also - this kind of ties in with a lot of stuff about young people thinking they are invincible esp, with matters of sex. not true sadly, none of us are

andie, I would be very interested to read the thing you said this is not the place for, either here, or if you prefer on another thread

I fear that the uncomfortable feeling is so close to basic, rationalised bigotry. It makes me uncomfortable. I can see the difference but surely all bigots protecting their patch can? I can see why good people put themselves out not to be like that.

Speaking of bra shopping - I bought maternity bras when about 8 weeks pregnant, very sore and big up top, very lonely, and I hadn't told anyone and wasn't able to tell my mum. the assistant in the shop was very kind bringing me things to try on and making suggestions and I was so, so grateful to her. Another key women-moment for me.

Interesting, thanks gin.

Gin - I've not read that before, thanks. I will now no doubt trot it out at regular intervals (& most likely gain many cookies in the process). The issue of women being allowed to define their own spaces is one of the things that drew me to radical feminism - I was (and am still) very uncomfortable with the way the trans lobby demand access to female only spaces, and the ways they continually attempt to no-platform feminists whose views differ from their own. But then given how quickly certain trans disavow themselves from feminism I sometimes suspect their involvement is more about adding credibility to their sexual fantasies than any genuine desire to improve the status of women.

Re TGism helping create a more equal society - I certainly don't believe that's its explicit aim. As you rightly say a great deal of it is about reifying gender roles. But as I think someone said on one of the other threads about "terfs", I can see that it 'may' unwittingly undermine them. Esp. if it continues to lose the emphasis on physical change. We live in a gendered society, so is it really that surprising that for some the best way to understand themselves is within that context? Similarly Julia Serano, a trans-feminist who I can't stand, had a piece in Ms recently that was particularly troublesome for feminism, in which she tried to empower 'femininity' (I think either glosswitch or CCP did a pretty good takedown of it). But If we accept that as humans we will always have people who are more passive rather than active, compassionate rather than unfeeling, then one of the goals of those who want to undo the damage gender does is to say that men and women both are capable of those qualities (rather than them being prescriptive roles). And if then that becomes a reality, isn't there an argument to recontextualise those qualities without the oppressively male value judgments?

My personal view (undoubtedly the result of my experiences) is that equality is going to be an almost impossible achievement. I think sexual dimorphism in humans plays a massive role in inequality. The thing that struck me most of all about transition was the way men used the threat of violence (both explicit and implied) and their physical strength to get what they want. It's no coincidence I dont think, that co-dominance in primates only occurs in those which aren't sexually dimorphic. I'm not saying it can't be overcome, after all if any of the primates are intellectually capable of overcoming biology it must surely be us, just that it would take a degree of consciousness or mindfulness on the part of those who oppress women, that is difficult to achieve or sustain. This probably all sounds (is) quite mad, and i'm probably going to regret posting it...

It doesn't sound mad to me at all. I think that deep down I agree with your feelings about the impossibility of equality and because of that I am moving ever closer to a separatist view. How's that for sounding mad?

Garlic - It's an entirely appropriate comparison, but a slightly less extreme (though no less troublesome) one might be comparing them to sufferers of BIID who have limbs amputated. Again the sufferers report that they live less troubled lives if they do get surgery. Madness (and I use the term without value judgments), is something that is perhaps best understood rather than cured, as many people seem to be completely resistant to what therapy can do. In such cases isn't a less mentally troubled life the more preferable option? But like you say I am an exception, and this maybe is a view that just bolsters my 'exceptional-ness'. Perhaps what's really the issue is the difficulty in accessing good mental health care (I was exceptionally lucky in that respect)

Gin - If I were a woman I suspect I'd feel the same, but I'm not ready to give up on men quite yet :)

I don't hate men! I have three very good male friends and a brother who I love very much and I know there are loads and loads of other good ones out there. It's not the individuals, it's the system. Patriarchy is fucked, it fucks everything, and I don't know how it can be dismantled.

Belle - they exist. Twitter is an excellent portal for this kind of thing (if you can resist getting sucked into nastier side of it. @terrorizermir might be able to point you in the right direction. I keep hoping that the gender critical trans people will organise against the trans activists, but it's not happened yet.

Vezzie - Yes, very much all of that.
The thing that occured to me was nothing particularly interesting, just to do with the 'value' of respecting people's identity. I've been very clear about the fact that I believe the respect people afforded my 'identity' paid a key part in my recovery, but actually that may not be true. Gin mentioned about the fakeness of such women/trans interactions, and I wonder whether people's conscious efforts to be compassionate were a help or a hinderance. Perhaps what really helped was 'actually' being percieved as female. Or perhaps it made no difference at all, after all my gender identity played little or no role during the 6 months of therapy I went through.

Gin - Apologies again, that was perhaps a reflection on how I feel about men, but I realise I was also attributing a motive to your words.

Yikes, don't apologise! I wasn't very clear originally, and I realise that just saying I'm gravitating towards separatism without expanding makes me sound like I hate all men. Like you, I've not given up on them all!

andiewithanie, that is so interesting, what you say about your experience.

I really, really hope that this doesn't offend anyone and I apologise in advance if it does. but I find myself, this evening, wondering whether people experiencing what is diagnosed as gender dysphoria is like women who suffer very badly emotionally from infertility.

In each case, the very painful absence of satisfaction is experienced as something not happening that should be happening. the pain is so great that it makes the person suffering feel that their state is disordered and by extension can and should be corrected.

but ... but.... but it can't always be corrected, sadly, not for everyone, and so what does "should" actually mean? is it the case that a person who hasn't had babies and wants them should have been able to have them?

sorry, I don't mean should in some moral sense.

I just think... well I was brought up as a misfit in many ways in society at large, in a religion and culture which taught you that you were entitled to nothing. One of the things I learnt very early on (and it was both good for me and bad for me) that "everyone has one" or "everyone does it" was not an argument that was going to wash. the pangs of (sometimes vicious) envy that I have felt at times watching people lead normal lives of various sorts, or inhabit their successfully femininely acceptable female bodies, have never translated into the thought "if her, why not me?" Never. I sometimes feel that I have been spared a lot of pain for considering myself ineligible for standard issue happiness - and apart from anything else you don't know how hard won or illusory the effect is - for all you know, that "perfect" woman you yearn to be has eating disorders, sleeps 2 fitful hours a night and has to was facial hair every 3 days. that is how hard won femininity is for many women so why should I think I am owed anything?

that is a bit of a ramble and once again I am terribly sorry for any insensivity - but "fitting in" is such a tall order it kind of blows my mind a bit

"wondering whether people experiencing what is diagnosed as gender dysphoria is like women who suffer very badly emotionally from infertility... something not happening that should be happening"

The difference is that infertility is an actual physiological problem. Women's bodies indeed normally make babies, which is why infertility is distressing - their body should be doing something but it isn't.

In the case of trans people, their bodies are doing what they are supposed to do - an XY human being has a functional penis and a set of testicles, Adam's apple, etc. There is no physiological problem. The problem is in their perceptions of their bodies & 'selves'.

"I'm not what I am", in other words.

I'm not a regular on the FWR board, so apologies if this is a stupid question for many, but would really appreciate an answer:

Why are many of you using the very terms that you don't agree with like "cis" or "born women"?

It seems to me that we should not be using these terms at all if we are rejecting them.

Vezzie - I posted a video on the Judith Butler thread, which if you've not already seen you might find interesting. Like you I think a lot about fitting in, and I sometimes see these normal lives people lead and desperately want it for myself. But there can be compensations for being an outsider...

Christ - I feel like I should apologise for stomping all over this thread with my size 10s, but it's been so fucking interesting. I've given up on having rational conversations with other men and other trans people. And as useful as twitter is it's not the best format for discussing these issues, so I really hope nobody resents my presence :/

The difference is that infertility is an actual physiological problem. Women's bodies indeed normally make babies, which is why infertility is distressing - their body should be doing something but it isn't.

yes, also the infertility (the physiological problem itself) isn't really the upsetting bit (most people don't know they are infertile until they attempt to conceive). You are upset because the infertility has led to childlessness which is devastating (if that is what you want) and then you blame your body for not performing.

I suffered devastating infertility but I now have children and I don't think about my bodies subfertility ever anymore. I have my lovely children and my PCOS doesn't really get a second thought except when I'm checking out my tache in the mirror

I use "cis" because I think it would get confusing otherwise in the discussion when repeating things back from trans discussions.

I'd never use it in general conversation and I always use quotes to show I think it is a bullshit term.

I really hope nobody resents my presence - Hell, no! I'm finding you so interesting, I was even quoting you to my parents at lunchtime

also the infertility (the physiological problem itself) isn't really the upsetting bit. You are upset because the infertility has led to childlessness which is devastating

That wasn't quite true for me. I felt a sense of utter shock that my body didn't work like a 'normal', healthy woman's body. I accept that I've been through enough weird shit that some of my experiences are atypical, but I don't think this was. It was the first time I'd been forced to comprehend myself as an organism rather than a personality carried in a body, if that makes any sense ... I think it probably does, as I've heard plenty of women describe similar shock on giving birth. I discovered I'm an organism, and a mutated one at that.

Being "the wrong gender" could certainly deliver the same species of shock, I'd guess.

I really hope nobody resents my presence :/

I certainly don't, I'm glad you're here.

GA - Gawd bless ya, but it was a sincere invitation. Given all I've said it would be massively hypocritical for me to invade a female space. A mate told me about this place, and she mentioned guys post here too, but i've not seen any evidence of them in this thread.

WRT the questions about "cis," I won't use it, I think it's garbage.

How is it actually pronounced - like "sis"? Because "sies" is an Afrikaans expression of disgust and when English-speaking South Africans use it it sounds like "sis."

"You are upset because the infertility has led to childlessness which is devastating (if that is what you want) and then you blame your body for not performing."

Yes, and the difference between this and transsexuality is that your body was indeed made for 'performing' (i.e. making babies), whereas the transperson's 'performance' request of his body is entirely unreasonable (a male body will look like a man's, of course, and it's unreasonable to expect it to look like a woman's).

andie - I appreciate your posts here, please keep posting. Your viewpoint is invaluable.

I have always liked to think that the wo in woman stands for woman and those with a vital bit missing were men.
Until I lost mine, (I went down fighting, hit the anaesthetasist screamed like a banshee etc, but I'd had an epidural and was hampered somewhat).
Vessie I get the infertility analogy.
I've never been feminine, I was first misgendered age 8, Despite waist length hair.
As a teenager my brother wore more make up than me, My hands are big (& calloused) .-
None of that has ever bothered me I love my tough (bit old now) body. But the hysterectomy has floored me, I have felt less than and other (although I didn't feel particularly female before). It is difficult to explain how devastating this was, and gives me some reluctant sympathy with those who have never had a it.