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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Foetus' right to life vs women's bodily autonomy

573 replies

AmberTheCat · 15/08/2014 12:04

I've just been reading a paper written by a friend of a friend, arguing that a foetus should be seen as having the same right to life as a postpartum human, because there are no lines that can be drawn between a foetus and someone post-birth that couldn't also be drawn between two postpartum humans. He added a note to say that clearly there is a question of how this right to life relates to women's autonomy, but that this wasn't something he was addressing in this paper.

Given that this is surely THE question, can you help me refine my arguments for the primacy of bodily autonomy? My instinctive view is that I can't see any way of denying that a foetus is a human being, or at least has the potential to become a human being, depending on how developed it is, but that the decision of whether or not to allow that (potential) human to grow inside her must still always remain the woman's. I'm quite out of touch with the thinking around this, though, so would welcome pointers.

Thanks!

OP posts:
freyaW2014 · 15/08/2014 23:39

SGB what a stupid thing to say!

SevenZarkSeven · 15/08/2014 23:41

SGB what a sensible thing to say!

ballsballsballs · 15/08/2014 23:42

"Sometimes us ladies are scared to go out at night to places where large numbers of men gather for fear of being raped"

hollie84 · 15/08/2014 23:44

Freya would you actually want to force women whose foetuses have conditions like anencephaly to give birth and "hand the baby over" (to whom?)?

grimbletart · 15/08/2014 23:46

Give me an example! Wouldn't the woman know about abnormalities before 35 weeks??

That is an incredibly stupid comment. A member of my family has a child (born at 38 weeks) who is the most severely handicapped I have ever seen. Not even a CVS at 24 weeks or any of the several scans showed up the abnormalities.

CaptChaos · 15/08/2014 23:49

Hmmmm. You know those puppets, made of socks? Have you seen any recently?

pommedeterre · 15/08/2014 23:51

That these threads always start outlining situations and reasons makes me stabby. Surely the point is that women shouldn't have to justify their reasons for abortion - especially up yo the legal cut off as it is, we'll the law. After that it all becomes murkier but if I believe in the desperate woman's right for whatever health reason to end her pregnancy then I also believe in the woman making a less 'morally difficult' case for not wanting a baby?

CaptChaos · 15/08/2014 23:53

freya Captchaos I thought this was a debate, is my opinion not valid?

It is a debate, and no, not to my mind anyway.

I don't think anyone should do it that was my point, that doesn't mean I can stop you (although I don't think it's legal anyway is it)

It is legal, and I'll ask you again, seeing as you ignored the question in your hurry to gather your skirts about you.

What qualifies you or gives you the right to police other women's bodies?

You might not do it, but you have no right whatsoever to legitimately stop other women doing it.

TheBabyFacedAssassin · 15/08/2014 23:57

Freya, I am a woman who was denied an abortion (I live in Northern Ireland) and had to carry my daughter knowing that she would die when she was born. She was stillborn at 35 weeks in the end. I knew from my 20 week scan that she would not survive. Forcing me and other women to go through that is barbaric and inhumane. Count yourself lucky you can't imagine why women would have late term abortions.

CaptChaos · 15/08/2014 23:58

Oh Assassin, I have often thought about you since the last time we were on a similar thread. I am so very very sorry for your loss. Are you getting the support you need? Take care Thanks

I agree that what you were made to go through was barbaric and inhumane.

TheBabyFacedAssassin · 16/08/2014 00:03

Capt, thanks! I'm doing ok!

Actually meeting the chair of the main women's rights/abortion activist group in the next couple of weeks, very much looking forward to sharing my story in the hope that we can get the law changed here.

CaptChaos · 16/08/2014 00:03

Good! I'm sure some of the FWR massive would be up for some feministy yelling, if you needed it.

freyaW2014 · 16/08/2014 00:14

Assassin that's terrible Flowers but I don't live in Northern Ireland and if a 20 week scan in England showed up these problems you would be given a choice

Capt I ignored the question because it's dumb. I've said my part and clearly we disagree but I'm not getting personal I just don't see the point in arguing for the sake of it

CaptChaos · 16/08/2014 00:17

It's only dumb if you don't actually understand
a) the basics of debating and
b) the subject.

I'm not getting personal at all, but I am now 100% sure you don't understand either.

CaptChaos · 16/08/2014 00:18

And actually, if I remember right, because of stupid mix ups, Assassin was unable to travel to the Uk either, because her results came back too late.

So she had to do what you want to make all women do. Because it's dumb.

freyaW2014 · 16/08/2014 00:21

It's very hard to understand your point of view.

TheGoop · 16/08/2014 00:30

'Abortion at 38 weeks is the same as 8 weeks?? Wtaf?'

Why are they different? At least from a pro-life stance thy are not different at all.

Circumstances may make them different. An abortion of an unwanted foetus at 8 weeks after a contraceptive failure is different to an abortion of a very much wanted cpreynancy at 8 weeks at the insistence of an abusive partner or parent. Everything has context. My miscarriage was awful, my abortion wasn't pleasant but it was a instant decision never regretted.

freyaW2014 · 16/08/2014 00:30

Assassins issue was due to where she lives but I'm her case clearly she had good reason to consider a termination. Earlier we were talking about abortion at 35 weeks as a right. There's bound to be times where decisions are difficult but I can't imagine many examples where this would actually be the case. Talking of your rights without giving proper examples of scenarios seems a bit pointless.

As I said with all hollies examples earlier in none of those situations I would choose to abort. When a baby is seriously ill or the mother's life is at risk a doctor will usually want to do a c section anyway by that late stage. That is my point of view

sashh · 16/08/2014 02:46

All pregnancies damage the pregnant woman. For most people it is stretch marks and the need for a few stitches.

For some women that damage is cardiomyopathy (about 1 in 1000), for some it is death.

If an adult human attempts to kill another one, or does kill, then they are punished. If an adult assaults another they are punished.

If you want to give a feotus rights you have to give it responsibilities too. If you want to treat it as human then it should be treated like any other human.

Can you see a foetus being put on trial? No, it's ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as calling it human.

Other humans do not have a right to harm me, they do not have a right to try to kill me.

larrygrylls

If you woke up tomorrow morning with Ian Brady somehow transplanted in to your abdomen would you might think differently about the dismembering. Although you should really look in to what abortion entails because an abortion that late involves giving birth.

larrygrylls · 16/08/2014 07:19

Can I take it that all who are pro abortion to term are also pro assisted dying? This is a much simpler issue of bodily autonomy as no other beings are involved.

Those who refuse to view the developing foetus as a human being are merely using a self serving argument. What if the foetus/baby is capable of 'independent' life (albeit in an incubator)? Do you still favour the right to abortion or the right to give birth to a live baby? At this point the only way to abortion is to kill a being perfectly capable of independent life outside the womb,

Two cells are clearly an embryo, with no rights. A nine month 'foetus' is, short of semantics, clearly a human being. The law, as is, tries to draw a line between these two points. The two doctor thing should go. Abortion should be absolutely on demand up to a reasonable point in the pregnancy. After that the 'rights' of the foetus need considering against the effects on the woman.

larrygrylls · 16/08/2014 07:24

Sash,

The concept if waking up to find something growing in your stomach is a ridiculous one. Firstly, as said on so many threads about men having to support accidentally conceived children, they can abstain from sex. No sex, no pregnancy. More realistically, I am pro abortion on demand, up to a point, and up to term based on existing uk law. So, firstly I would have Ian Brady removed before he was sentient and, later, I suspect, if psychopathy were scannable, I could still have him aborted on the basis of handicap.

JustTheRightBullets · 16/08/2014 07:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pommedeterre · 16/08/2014 07:58

sshh - i like the foetus on trial argument.

baby - I cannot imagine what you have been through and how you survived those 15 weeks.

larrygrylls · 16/08/2014 08:07

Foetus on trial also applies to infanticide and the euthanasia of the mentally impaired . Still like it?

larrygrylls · 16/08/2014 08:09

Laws exist to protect society from the minority who do not share the rest if society's values. The argument about 'not thinking much of women' could be applied to any law. Laws are unnecessary for the vast majority of moral human beings. Not a reason not to have laws.