Frank Maloney - Gender Reassignment

[CKDexterHaven]

Lived over 60 years with full male privileges - Check
Rose to the top of a male-dominated profession - Check
Right-wing political candidate for UKIP - Check
Homophobic public comments - Check
Believes in family values and traditional morality - Check
Believes in a 'female brain' (like people used to believe in a 'negro brain' and a 'Jewish brain') - Check

Nasty radical feminists are meant to be the reactionary ones but, to me, it is the transactivist movement that is conservative, homophobic and longs for the days when homosexuality was criminalised and men were men and women were women.

I too want to know what "gender identity" is ...

It's odd, because I find feminists are keen to explain why they don't believe in gender identity as an innate thing seperate from our born sex. (and I find their argument compelling, agrees with my experience etc)

But those who believe the opposite don't seem keen to explain why. (and I don't agree with being called cis)

Still would like to hear a response from anyone on that side...

i think they probably don't feel they have to, because the way society is constructed backs up that view quite a lot, so it's just a case of saying "look at all these women being nurturing and empathetic, and look at all these men being strong and logical - see, female brain, male brain!" and the patriarchy nods along

That would be a serious lack of thinking.

Oh hang on! I'm a woman. Am I allowed to think or object to lack of thinking?

"I would like to be the only female..." Speaks volumes doesn't it? It makes a mockery of diversity statistics as did that recent report about a woman being in the top 10 hugest paid CEOs for the first time. Except it was a late transitioning transwoman and the top woman was number 36. Top female Hollywood director? Lana Wachowski (formerly Larry).

Transwomen are not female, so Maloney can't become the only female guide in boxing.

Female is not an identity, it's a factual desciption of the type of body you have. Like blue eyes.

I feel like a woman I think because of my experiences as a woman and growing up as a girl. Periods, the risk of getting pregnant (I've just found out I'm pg again- total accident. Dh won't spend the next 18 months with his life as totally changed as mine will be), attention both good and bad from men, expectations of fashion and behaviour...

I know I've been socialised to behave in a feminine way but I don't think my personality is innately female or male. I'm just me. Sometimes kind and generous and loving and thoughtless and selfish and clever and demanding and irresponsible and lazy and brilliant and funny and courageous and flirty and silly and all the other words that describe every person not just every woman

I'm so very glad I found MN feminists. I don't feel anywhere near as brilliant as so many posting here but I do feel at least like I can get my thoughts out. :)

I really really like your post Buffy.

Can I ask a q here as I am kind of coming round to a totally different way of thinking re this. DO you think the issue is that certain stereotypical features of being a woman couple with his desire to have a sexual relationship with a man have led him to believe he has to actually have this reassignment and 'be' a woman rather than living as a gay man who enjoys what are considered 'traditional' female things?

Top post Buffy.

I agree with all that Buffy said in that last post. But alongside that I have a very strong emotional response of fear that I do not want to die, become disabled or go through avoidable pain due to pregnancy and childbirth. And even more than that, I don't want my daughter to go through any of that.

I don't know if I am over-reacting, being too scared or whatever. But some of the rights females have around pregnancy have come into being in my lifetime, they areunder constant threat of removal and some provision is still really poor. And all that is without even looking at other countries where the situation is a whole lot worse.

I don't know how we can organise around that without a group name to say who it happens to and who is at risk.

X post. I mean your second to last post I am agreeing with Buffy.

Nicola Adams is a fantastic role model for women and I hope this guy doesn't detract from her achievements if he seriously thinks he is the 'only female' guiding the next generation of boxers.

It's special snowflake-ism, isn't it?

To be fair to Kellie Maloney for a moment, she is not (and as far as I know never was) a boxer, but a boxing promoter. I doubt she'd put herself in the same category as Nicola Adams or Jane Crouch for that reason. I suspect she is meaning to be a female pioneer in the administration of the sport, not suggesting she's the first woman in boxing full stop. Don't know, can't be bothered to read the nonsense tabloid article on this.

In response to Noddy - There is some suggestion than transgenderism is about internalised homophobia or a survival strategy in a homophobic world. Gender reassignment surgery began as a form of corrective treatment for homosexuality and it is no surprise that transgenderism is extremely popular in repressive regimes, like Iran, or countries where macho ideals make life difficult for gay men.

However, we don't know if Frank/Kellie wants to have sex with men and, indeed, most transwomen are sexually attracted to women, as they were before transition. Lesbians-born-women have a problem with this because they are not physically attracted to male bodies, they don't want to start using contraception in order to have sex, they don't want to expose themselves to the higher risk of domestic violence, rape, stalking and murder that goes with being in relationship with someone socialised as male, and they do want the common ground of being in a relationship with someone who understands what it's like to be socialised as female. If lesbians express this sexual preference and set sexual boundaries they are called 'bigots' and told they deserve to die or be raped, which puts one in mind of Elliot Rodger and every other MRA you can think of.

Thanks CKD My dps dad was a boxer and I have some knowledge of FM and think some of what is touched on here is v interesting

Good post Buffy

I think it's easy for people to say that they don't identify as having a particular gender when they have never experienced gender dysphoria themselves. Easy to believe you're rejecting gender when your body and mind have always fit, albeit subconsciously.

It is a real thing, that happens in the womb, a hormonal imbalance. If the sexes have different bodies, why is it so hard to accept that we might have different brains too? It doesn't make me any less of a feminist to believe in gender.

The suicide rates amongst trans people are horrendous - around a third kill themselves. Are we really to believe that people reach those depths of despair simply because they don't want to conform to stereotypes?

Easy to believe you're rejecting gender when your body and mind have always fit, albeit subconsciously.

Mine haven't. In fact, they have rarely fit.

why is it so hard to accept that we might have different brains too?

Because it's been shown to be untrue.

The suicide rates amongst trans people are horrendous - around a third kill themselves. Are we really to believe that people reach those depths of despair simply because they don't want to conform to stereotypes?

That is an awful statistic. Your rationale for why trans* people commit suicide seems simplistic. I am not aware of anyone who killed themselves simply. There is always an interplay of reasons, feeling as if you're in the wrong body could well be one of them.

A lot of vocal TAs are rejecting the dysphoria idea though, and telling us that gender is fluid, which it may well be, but sex isn't.

I think it's easy for people to say that they don't identify as having a particular gender when they have never experienced gender dysphoria themselves. Easy to believe you're rejecting gender when your body and mind have always fit, albeit subconsciously.

To me 'subconsciously' sounds an awful lot as if you know for many of us our bodies and minds don't 'fit', and you want to claim that they do fit ... we just don't consciously know it. I may be being cynical to say that. But I find it really offensive that someone claims to have a sense of how my body and my brain should fit together.

It is a real thing, that happens in the womb, a hormonal imbalance.

Evidence? I do not think we know enough about the mind. We know a certain about about the brain, but even observing physical differences between brains tells us little about differences between minds.

If the sexes have different bodies, why is it so hard to accept that we might have different brains too?

What do you think the differences are between male brains and female brains? And how does this relate to male minds and female minds?

The suicide rates amongst trans people are horrendous - around a third kill themselves. Are we really to believe that people reach those depths of despair simply because they don't want to conform to stereotypes?

These suicide rates are indeed horrendous. But why on earth do you think people wouldn't be driven to despair by oppressive stereotypes?! I can't imagine much worse than constantly being told you're not normal, that everything that seems natural to you is wrong and misguided.

How on earth do you know what it is and is not easy for other people to experience rosegarden?

I doubt very much that trans people commit suicide over the existence of agender people, anymore than gay people commit suicide because of the existence of asexual people.

It is like some kind of religious shaming to try and link our existence with somebody else's suicide in one argument.

It is not true that a third of Trans people kill themselves. Yes the suicide rate is higher than the general population, but scare statistics that re untrue helps no one.