Frank Maloney - Gender Reassignment

[CKDexterHaven]

Lived over 60 years with full male privileges - Check
Rose to the top of a male-dominated profession - Check
Right-wing political candidate for UKIP - Check
Homophobic public comments - Check
Believes in family values and traditional morality - Check
Believes in a 'female brain' (like people used to believe in a 'negro brain' and a 'Jewish brain') - Check

Nasty radical feminists are meant to be the reactionary ones but, to me, it is the transactivist movement that is conservative, homophobic and longs for the days when homosexuality was criminalised and men were men and women were women.

Sorry TeWi, I must have missed that, and I can't find it on a quick rustle through, could you repeat the question, please?

Flora I agree with what you're saying. By divisive, I meant that, while we will have diametrically opposing thoughts on some things, we have similar experiences with others. Male violence for example. I agree with you also that feminine =/= woman. It would just be nice if they stopped sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming TERF every single time someone has a mild disagreement with them, or even asks them to explain something.

I'm not suggesting we fight their fights for them, they have spent years being socialised as the dominant class, they know how it works, they can sort that themselves.

You are right, flora, people want to be seen as liberal and accepting and polite so they accept transwomen without realising the implications for feminism.

TeWi wanted to know why the trans view of "gender identity" is so often accepted as correct and goes unchallenged iirc.

Bit late in responding but picking up on a few things.

1. I don't massively identify as "female". It sounds a bit dispassionate and box ticking. I am fine with being a woman however. To me being a woman means being strong, resilient, intelligent, empathetic, non violent, caring for others and the environment. I know that many men have these qualities too of course, but for me they are innately associated with womanhood.

Some of the PP seemed to suggest that "being a woman" was defined only by the experience of oppression. This seems a bit depressing and limiting to me - would you say the same about being black or Jewish for example?

2. I can understand why you might disagree with "trans theory", whatever that is, but being transgender isn't a theory for many people, they actually are transgender! A PP said that they feel no discomfort in knowing they are a woman - that is not the case for FTM trans people. Surely to deny this is to deny someone else's lived experience?

I think it is fairly offensive to suggest to someone transgendered that it is only just a phase, or that they might just be confused or want something the other gender has. Incidentally it is also quite common for people to change sexual orientation when they transition too.

Sorry if I haven't picked up on all the latest points - the thread is moving fast!

I wish people would just explain WHY the trans version of 'gender identity' is right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. What is so bloody hard about that??*

This question Te? You won't get an answer, at best you'll get ignored and patronised and at worst death threats for being a bigot. The Trans activist ideology which dominates discussion (and as the Newsnight debacle illustrates this ideology is not shared by all trans) will not allow logic or rational discussion to take place. Because the whole ideology collapses when examined, in particular biological sex (with all it's observable proof) being a social construct whilst gender (with no proof beyond girls like pink, or at least lots do now in western culture) is an undisputed fact.

I would choose to be a woman any day of the week!!!!

I was speaking from the simplistic perspective of my childhood where I saw that women had it harder than men and had more restrictions etc.

Why is it common to change sexual orientation after transitioning?

meringue, just responding to your points:

"To me being a woman means being strong, resilient, intelligent, empathetic, non violent, caring for others and the environment. I know that many men have these qualities too of course, but for me they are innately associated with womanhood."

i don't think you can say these things are innate. for many women these qualities socialised or forced into them, and these things are so ingrained that it is impossible for us to know how women would behave without it. for some they will come naturally, for others they will perform the behaviours because it what is expected of them, others will actively resist and be deemed bad women (not bad people; bad women). it's very dangerous to say that they are innate, because what of those women who struggle to exhibit those qualities? are they not women too?

and to extrapolate, you are suggesting that men who do display those qualities are what? not men? woman-like? how do they otherwise come to exhibit these behaviours if they are innately associated with womanhood?

"Some of the PP seemed to suggest that "being a woman" was defined only by the experience of oppression. This seems a bit depressing and limiting to me - would you say the same about being black or Jewish for example?"

women's behaviours that are often perceived as "innate" may well be the result of oppression. if the majority of women are living in fear of male violence directed at them on a daily basis (not necessarily a blatant threat, but the violence of other men is enough for many women to treat all men with caution) how do you think they might adapt their behaviours? might they become more "strong, resilient, ... empathetic, non violent, caring for others" in order to decrease the likelihood of attracting male violence? it is limiting - that is the problem, and that is why we have feminism

i can't speak for black or jewish people of course, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone from those communities said that they altered their behaviour among white or non-jewish people as a result of socialisation and the long history of oppressive and violent behaviour. (and as an aside, my jewish friends tell me that the concept of exodus is fundamental to jewish people's sense of identity, though please do correct me if i have misrepresented this)

' To me being a woman means being strong, resilient, intelligent, empathetic, non violent, caring for others and the environment. I know that many men have these qualities too of course, but for me they are innately associated with womanhood.'

I see what you are getting at, but, I'm sorry - this is sexist.

It just is.

Men and women are equally capable of good and bad.

what LRD said

What LRD and petunia said.

Maybe the "common" change of sexual orientation after gender reassignment (research anyone?) is more due to repressed homosexuality than being the wrong "gender" (as was suggested by a pp pages ago in this Frank/Kellie case)

*petula

LRD I'd be happy to make common cause with gay men and transwomen where there are common issues. That's really not an option though with the current TA position. They will only accept com

Sorry they will only accept complete capitulation to the "transwomen are women" mantra and a woman is whoever says they are a woman. Since I will never agree that, I don't see any point in trying to foster alliances. There's none to be had with TAs at the moment. I'd rather spend time discussing these issues with women for consciousness raising and discussion.

I know, flora. That is what worries me - that's where I came into this thread.

What does changing one's sexual orientation after transition even mean?

In one scenario a heterosexual man who has sex with women becomes a homosexual 'woman' who sleeps with women after transitioning even though there is no change in behaviour.

In another scenario a homosexual man who sleeps with men becomes a heterosexual 'woman' who sleeps with men after transitioning even though there is no change in behaviour.

In another scenario a heterosexual man who sleeps with women becomes a heterosexual 'woman' who sleeps with men after transitioning and there is no change in orientation.

Ugh, Sarah Brown. I have read about transwomen physically attacking radical feminists and there are transwomen who are wife-beaters, rapists and murderers housed in women's prisons (helpfully skewing the statistics so that MRAs can say 'See, women are rapists too!'). I have yet to read about a radical feminist physically attacking anyone trans. Someone, somewhere wrote an interesting piece on white, middle-class autogynophile transwomen appropriating the deaths of poor, usually prostituted, transwomen of colour for their own purposes.

If Frank/Kellie has always been a woman how marvellous that she got on so well in the world of male boxing. It's great that they all just accepted her, without a whiff of misogyny, and her career just thrived. See girls, if you just go for it and don't whinge about sexism you can fulfill those dreams.

Seriously, does anyone even think we'd have heard of Frank if he'd been born Kellie?

Seriously, does anyone even think we'd have heard of Frank if he'd been born Kellie?

That's it, isn't it?

My question was to those who believe in cisgender etc. To explain why they believe gender identity is innate.

I find it extremely frustrating that so many people are not questioning this out of a good intention to be tolerant.

Oh well!

The 'only female'?? So our born female boxing champions shouldn't get a word in?

That says a lot.

Sorry TeWi, I can't help you there, I don't believe in cis gender and I don't think that gender identity is innate, because gender is socially constructed, so what might be innately feminine in one culture, might be held to be innately masculine in another.

I am probably going to be called out as a TERF, but fuck it. I don't identify as a feminist to agree with everyone. I identify as a feminist in order to liberate women from oppression. Even if that oppression comes from other people who 'identify' as women.