Female body hair.

[MontyGlee]

Lots of people said this can't be done because society's controls are too strong.

Well, I'm not sure. Ok, so it's just a small-scale online trend just now, but you've got to start somewhere.

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10968079/Womens-hairy-legs-I-hate-myself-for-shaving-but-I-just-cant-stop.html?placement=CB2]

I shave because I personally prefer the feeling. It doesn't hurt me, and it doesn't take much time. I don't like the look of body hair on men or women, but I would never expect anyone to shave if they didn't want to. I don't shave because I'm told to by some bloke, and I won't stop shaving just because some woman tells me its not feminist of me. This is getting to be a very tedious argument between "feminists" that is distracting us from doing anything useful.

Divided we fall, guys

BaraK9 - I think you're attacking a straw feminist! None of us have said "women ought not to shave". We're simply pointing out that shaving legs/armpits for women in our society comes with a whole load of cultural pressures and body-shaming that isn't there for men over the simple "beard or not beard" choice.

And that cultural pressure is the same thing that makes the Daily Mail think the most newsworthy thing about the recent cabinet reshuffle is to publish 6 full-page-height photos of women cabinet ministers with comments on their dress sense - none on their experience, fitness for the job (unless a flash of thigh is in some way related which it isn't), position on the political spectrum (e.g. Liz Truss, the new environment minister is very lacking in experience for a cabinet position, and very right wing when it comes to monetary policy - does the Mail discuss this? Nope!)

So what seems superficially like a minor issue isn't (not while that's all the popular press says in connection with women in the public eye) and isn't actually divisive (we really really aren't saying "if you shave you are betraying the sisterhood") - at least I assume it isn't divisive. On the other hand, if you really think a new cabinet minister's clothing choices are more important than her political views, then maybe you and I do have diametrically different views... but I'm hoping we don't.

I prefer the feeling of shaved legs to stubbly legs, but I've never had unshaven legs altogether so I don't know how to compare the two feelings. How did you find it, Bara?

I don't think anyone on the thread has been "some woman" who "tells you it's not feminist of you", it's been more of a general discussion, IIRC.

Why does removing pubic hair have to be sexually driven. It doesn't. Like choosing to shave or not to shave arm pits and legs it too can be purely because you choose too or not too. Everyone's opinions are influenced by something no one has truly free thought. Men shave too and actually now a days shave more of their body than we do. I think it has equalled out. How men get ridiculed for having a hairy back. It's looked at as disgusting.

How old are you Heyho? I'm nearly 50, and it really feels like there has been an enormous change since my youth - hardly anyone would have shaved their pubes back when I was a teenager/early 20s. Yet now it seems to be the norm. And it has coincided with a "fashion" for the shaved look in porn. Now this could be coincidence (correlation isn't cause and all that) but it does seem mighty suspicious. Fashions, whether clothing, body hair, whatever, don't arise spontaneously in a cultural vacuum, they come from somewhere. It's a rather naive view to say it's "purely because you choose to or not too" - humans are complex social animals and we don't do stuff aribtrarily. And when you read threads like the one on here a few months back where a woman had developed an abscess on her groin due to an infected hair follicle - and her partner was still pressuring her to shave, despite the fact that any dermatologist will tell you that such infected hair follicles are much, much more common among women who shave than among women who leave their pubes "au naturel " - well, that doesn't sound like a woman exercising a free choice. (The one man who made the mistake of trying to shame me about my armpit hair did not do it twice - I made sure I reduced him to a 3 inch high blubbering mess by the time I'd finished the dressing down I gave him).

I agree that there does seem to be increasing amounts of pressure for men to shave and primp and preen, but I don't actually see that as a good thing (well not to the obsessive level that women are culturally conditioned to do - having them wash their pits and apply deoderant is something I quite like - activities which were seen by many as suspiciously unmanly back in the 70s). Obsessive grooming seems to me to be driven in part by the advertising industry - they can make money out of persuading men to buy products that used to be reserved for women (moisturiser, waxing strips for their back, whatever). And again, to me it just shows how aribtrary and culturally conditioned aesthetic responses are - I personally think men look most peculiar with shaved armpits, because it doesn't match the template of "masculinity" I built up during my formative years. And this is arbitrary, because as you point out, many are likely to shave now, and there are cultures (most of the Middle East) where it would always have been the norm.

Heyho, images of shaven armpits and shaven legs are everywhere (as indeed are images of hairless backs and chests).

Images of shaven pudenda are largely seen in porn, although various underwear ads might look quite different without at least partial hair removal.

If you read what I wrote carefully I said that removing pubic hair doesn't have to be sexually driven. That's means I believe some women can shave themselves because they want to not for a sexual reason.
I am nearly 50 and from my youth I remember how sexually unattractive back hair on men was perceived. I also know that girls tidied up in the 80s. We all did. Yes women tidy it up today it is only a few that go the whole hog.
I also said no one has free thought. We are all influenced by what we see, read and are told. That includes the desire to not shave. Our biological development of our brains is out of our control as well as the amount of hormones and activity in it. Yes then there is the big influence of society, culture around us. But remember that also helped form your opinions.
I however like to think that some of us choose to do something because we want to. It would be blinkered not to think that way.

"I also said no one has free thought. We are all influenced by what we see, read and are told. That includes the desire to not shave. "

I agree with this.

"If you read what I wrote carefully I said that removing pubic hair doesn't have to be sexually driven. That's means I believe some women can shave themselves because they want to not for a sexual reason. "

My point was that the images influencing society's thought on this area tend to be sexual ones, vs pictures of armpits etc which are more "everyday"

I think its very difficult in today's society to separate women's body image and sexuality anyway. Women and their bodies are sexualized. It's everywhere. And the shaving of armpits is just more towards the lower end of the scale, shaving pubes a bit higher up.

This thread caught my eye, as this is something I've been mulling over recently.

I wonder if the people who aren't too concerned with hair removal and how it does/doesn't relate to feminism happily find themselves at the low end of the hairy scale.

I have the joyous combination of pale skin, very dark hair and it's fast growing. If I shave my legs, no matter how close, there is still dark stubble. By 5pm, the hair has grown visibly. Waxing gives me ingrown hairs. For reasons too long to go into I can't use lasers or the like. So I only wear trousers, even in summer. This summer is fun!

Don't get me started on the obvious facial hair. (no PCOS, by the way, this is just how I am).

How did it get to the point where women like myself feel they can't show any evidence of leg hair, that the acceptable thing to do is spend ages every day battling with the stuff? What a waste of time, and self esteem.

I know other posters will say that I should stop shaving. Maybe one day I'll get to that point, but in the meantime, it's trousers and stubbly legs.

And if there is ever a referendum on leg shaving, mine is a 'No' vote!

I shave my legs even though they are mostly covered and occasionally my pits (often uncovered) and keep my pubic hair neat i.e. can't be seen outside of pants/swimming costume. My swimming costume is pretty high cut though.

I'm not wild about hair on other people, except armpit hair which I love . I'm bisexual and tend to be attracted to fairly androgynous people. Very hairy men are a huge turn off for me but I'm not repulsed by them, I just not sexually attracted iyswim. I hate hairy legs on me but don't mind them on other women (or men). I prefer hairy pits and hate a shaved pubic area. I'm not that keen on long head hair but I like a bit of facial stubble on a bloke. I didn't realise what a fussy/shallow bugger I was until I started typing.

I used to shave and wax everything, trying to fit into some kind of warped male fantasy so that 'they would like me and not be horrible to me'. But then I discovered feminism, met my feminist ally husband, and now just don't bother. My husband loves me how I am, I love how I am and don't feel the need to change. It is SO liberating. I can't care less what other men think.

My mum never shaved her legs. I left school at 16 and had no female friends until I had DC1 when I was 22. I didn't learn how to be a girl during that period, so I never started shaving my legs, wearing makeup or plucking my eyebrows. I didn't realise until recently that most women do.