Female body hair.

[MontyGlee]

Lots of people said this can't be done because society's controls are too strong.

Well, I'm not sure. Ok, so it's just a small-scale online trend just now, but you've got to start somewhere.

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10968079/Womens-hairy-legs-I-hate-myself-for-shaving-but-I-just-cant-stop.html?placement=CB2]

What itsbetter said

Didn't the ancient Egyptians used to remove body hair (mostly for louse control)? I think it goes back quite a few centuries for that reason.

I remember reading some badly-written erotica (which also wasn't very erotic) published in the 1920s, and they all got a bit excited about soaping each others' parts up and shaving everything. The leg-crossing bit for me, where I was thinking, "nonononono, no one's ever doing that to me," was the bit where they mentioned the cut-throat razor.

So if you are going to do it, be grateful for tje invention of safety razors.

There's nothing silly about taking umbrage at an expectation that women will spend excessive amounts of time ensuring that they look sufficiently ornamental.

I had to really enlarge some of the pictures of 'hirsute celebs' to even see half of the underarm hair

I don't shave/wax/remove hair except for one whisker on my upper lip and one on my neck. I also consider myself a feminist.

However, I don't remove hair due feminist ideals but because of a chronic skin condition that is made worse if I wax/sugar/pluck. Shaving doesn't cause as extreme a reaction but it's still not great. So I don't bother.

My reaction to how myself and others view my hairiness IS tied in with feminism though. Most of the time I am oblivious to people's reactions - I wear vest tops with shorts/skirts and spend a good proportion of my time on the beach in a cossie - so my pit muffs and furry legs are 'flaunted'.

However, there are days when I feel a bit sad that I can't 'conform' to the norms of society easily and then become angry with myself that I feel that way.

Maybe but these days women do things because they choose to. Maybe this one was one way but is now another? If language can change over time why can't anything else? You're saying it's a have to choice and I'm suggesting it's actually no longer that simple.

The most amazing thing about that Mirror article is that the writer makes out the celebs "forgot" rather than decided.

Why do either sex modify body hair?

My OH shaves, cuts his hair short, his barber trims his eyebrows and even ear hair when he visits. None of that is sexist.

Also this is becoming less and less of a women only issue.

Very, very few young men have body hair either. They may have hairy legs and pits, but the number with obviously waxed chests and backs is staggering.

My very hairy DH is often the only furry person in the pool or water park que. It's getting to the point where, I think, even he feels faintly uncomfortable. Even though he'd never admit it.

It's time the whole of society took a step back and thought about the amount of time and money we are spending on trying to conform to an impossible ideal and the effect never being perfect has on peoples self esteem.

My OH shaves, cuts his hair short, his barber trims his eyebrows and even ear hair when he visits. None of that is sexist.

Does he have other men telling him that, if he doesn't shave, trim his eyebrows and ear hair that he is dirty, lazy and smelly? Does he have women telling him that they won't have sex with him if he doesn't remove all his body hair? Would he be publicly derided if he didn't shave his legs? Would his sexuality be called into question if he grew his hair long? No?

Of course female body hair is tied up with sexism. Women are expected to conform with whatever 'look' presently suits male gaze. Women then go on to police other women who don't conform.

When I see a woman with hairy legs and armpits, or a man with a furry back or hairy nostrils or ears, then I think that they have generally unsavoury personal habits. I imagine that they probably don't floss their teeth, clean their nails properly and have slovenly homes.
For me it is not a feminist thing at all. Just a self-care and cleanliness thing.
I am not saying that this is right at all. But it's my instinctual reaction.

"Does he have other men telling him that, if he doesn't shave, trim his eyebrows and ear hair that he is dirty, lazy and smelly?"

I have no idea. I do know that he work in a profession that would take a grim view if her turned up for work unshaven and wooly eyebrows.

No DH doesn't have other men or his sexual partner (me) telling him if he should or shouldn't shave his body. He does feel pressure to shave his face and cut his very wild hair.

But, DH is 50 and belongs to a generation and, as a computer scientist, a peer group who don't care about their appearance much if at all.

The younger men in your average swimming pool clearly do and it seems to me that they care to an extent that's begining to exceed what's healthy.

I have DDs not DSs and it doesn't bode well for them either if the whole of society joins in this madness.

I have no idea. I do know that he work in a profession that would take a grim view if her turned up for work unshaven and woolly eyebrows.

Really? Poor him. DH was in the army and had to be clean shaven and have short hair, but I can't think of any other profession which would do the same. It's still not sexism though.

I never really got how terrifying my choices about my body were to people. So terrifying in fact that on this and other threads, women like myself who have chosen for whatever reason not to conform to male gaze have been insulted in a way that wouldn't be tolerated otherwise.

Dirty
Smelly
Slovenly
Unsavoury
Unclean
Skanky
Lazy
Unhealthy

I am old, and know that none of these things are true of me, I also have the self confidence to know exactly what I think of people who use such revolting insults. No wonder young women are removing all body hair now though, if people who should know better are giving them messages like that about the alternatives. Part of feminism should be about loving women, all women. In what way is insulting some women in this way loving?

I can't tell you how sad and worried this thread has made me for my DGD's ability to make choices for her own body.

"d it seems to me that they care to an extent that's begining to exceed what's healthy. "

As much as women, I wonder?

But, yes, I agree: more products can be sold by pressuring men as well as women to remove hair, lift weights etc.

This is absolutely a feminist issue. Women will always be judged on appearance unless the obsession with it ends. Every extra bit of attention on hair, make up, clothes etc adds to the general objectification. Be a show-pony, be judged as a show-pony. Pretty obvious.

EBearHug why does it matter that your cyclist friend looks like he is wearing hairy shorts when he has no trousers on?

I agree that body hair is a feminist issue up to a point, but men with hairy backs, hairy ears or nostrils are ridiculed.

'Women will always be judged on appearance unless the obsession with it ends. Every extra bit of attention on hair, make up, clothes etc adds to the general objectification. Be a show-pony, be judged as a show-pony. Pretty obvious'

No, it isn't obvious at all. Women are objectified regardless of how much time they spend on their appearance. And most people are too mature to judge others based on appearance or compare women to animals.

I will also say, and I never say this about anyone, that I am 99% convinced you are here from another site to make goady remarks, MontyGlee, because every thread I see you on you are making goady remarks about working mums, women's appearance or something else negative about women.

I'm quite hairy - dark hair on legs and arms. I do my pits, but nothing else. I get tutted at by aunties at weddings for not having done my arms, but eh, really don't care. My legs are always covered in trousers so won't scare the likes of Pickle.

I'd seriously side-eye any bloke that could only find hairless fanjos attractive, as there's something disturbingly pre-pubescent about them (the hairless fanjos, not the men).

When I see a woman with hairy legs and armpits, or a man with a furry back or hairy nostrils or ears, then I think that they have generally unsavoury personal habits. I imagine that they probably don't floss their teeth, clean their nails properly and have slovenly homes.
For me it is not a feminist thing at all. Just a self-care and cleanliness thing.
I am not saying that this is right at all. But it's my instinctual reaction.

It isn't at all an instinctual thing, tak1ingchances, it's a learned thing. And one that be unlearned.

Captchaos, yes that dh mentioned does have people telling him that. Male dysmorphia is on rise, make anorexia, male addiction to fitness, male issues with body shape. Much media driven much peer driven much women driven as women are only attracted to stripper style physics aren't they?

Tbh I think by making this solely a female issue you devalue young women. You infer them stupid. You also devalue young men as it's only an issue for women. I don't think this is a feminist issue it is a societal one. It's not straight cut anymore.

Archery, of course. But the point is very few people seem to want to unlearn because they like the new normal. They are actively investing in it and improving the industries supporting beauty/media/fashion.

I posted that Hairy Legs Club Tumblr blog over in the pub, adding that I'm always cheered up when a new partner doesn't shave places that patriarchy/porn society dictate they should.

You ought to see my DS and his mates, they take 'unkempt' to a new level. :o I'm actually a bit jealous that he's able to grow a better beard than me.