Appropriate clothing and make up lessons ...

[HavantGuard]

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10911294/Headteacher-Why-I-banned-250-girls-from-wearing-short-skirts.html

This happened at my old school recently too.

There is also a story about it in the Mail

Yuck.

There was a bit where he talked about not wearing trainer type shoes as shoes have to prevent the feet in the workplace, so presumably all girls not wearing sensible shoes that enclosed the whole foot were sent home?

Or does the protective footwear rule only apply to boys, and girls must protect their modesty instead?

I could not care less about the length of DD's skirt or the colour of her bra strap.

They should get rid of school uniforms, the kids at the local secondary school all wear stupidly short skirts and too tight shirts, then they go to the sixth form college and all wear jeans and baggy T-shirts. I know which is more 'modest' and its not the school uniform. missing the point completely

I work in the chemical industry where we are suppose to wear 'sensible shoes'. This means not too high a heel, not fabric shoes and no open toes. Much easier for mens shoes, about this time of year is is pretty much impossible to buy shoes for women that fulfil those criteria (I wear retro stylee leather trainers a lot of the time).

"He says that some girls put on make-up and "look worse." I"

Nnnngghhh!

Are his uniform shirts actually cotton blouses, or polo shirts? Because the former are a fuck of a lot more transparent. Did he think that through?

Good point Bill - I remember being hugely embarrassed over how transparent my shirt was when I started wearing a bra.

TBH I don't see the problem with bras myself - who on earth cares if you can see my strap or what colour it is? Underwear policing is a bit above and beyond.

However, I am scandalised at how short some of the secondary school pupils wear their skirts around here, and I think that knee length skirt policy is probably a good idea (as long as it's also a knee length short policy), and I do think that all makeup should be against the rules (again, my girls school did this, relaxed in 6th form) because it's another differentiator.

At my (all girls) secondary school 20 years ago as many girls wore trousers as wore skirts - but finding grey, girls school trousers was such a problem (boys ones were hopelessly the wrong shape even by that age for me) that my mum made mine! Perhaps they need to address the shops selling practical boys clothes, but not practical girls clothes over this too.

The whole tone of the article was awful - totally focussed on the girls.

Bleugh. Bill, I noticed that bit too. It's none of his business to apply aesthetic judgements to teenage girls.

The basic argument is really poor: 'Some girls get bullied about what they wear, so we thought we'd make them responsible for the entire school resenting a draconian uniform choice. That won't make them feel bullied at all.'

Quote from the head teacher in the newspaper article: "Especially with teenage children, we shouldn’t see bra straps.”

I'm not saying we should see bra straps, but I think the head teacher is tackling a symptom, not the cause of the problem.

In a non-sexualised, non-patriarchal society, I think there would be nothing inherently bad about showing a bra strap or wearing a very short skirt. They would be items of clothing, nothing more.

Unfortunately, we live in a patriarchal and increasingly sexualised society which causes a problem, which is the reaction and value judgement placed on a bra strap or short skirt by other people, particularly boys and men who are socialised into entitlement of sexual availability of girls and women. A bra strap or short skirt should mean a bra strap or a short skirt, but it doesn't - it means the displayer of a bra strap or wearer of a short skirt is, for example, not respectable enough or is (too) available for sex etc.

My advice to the head teacher is: think less about dress codes for girls and think more about anti-entitlement training for boys.

The head teacher also wants his new dress code to reduce a source of bullying, but as sure as night follows day, a bully will quickly shift their attention to another aspect of their victim's appearance or behaviour, won't they?

I am just that this headteacher thinks it is appropriate to disrupt girls' educations because you can see their bra through their school shirts. Surely that is a problem with the shirts, not the girls?

It is really pretty fucked up.

It read like a spoof. To steal from Tim Vine, it's like crime in multi storey car parks. Wrong on so many levels.

Two quotes from above:

"I could not care less about the length of DD's skirt"

"I am scandalised at how short some of the secondary school pupils wear their skirts around here"

So should a school manager just let it all go, or say anything?

And Vesuvia said "A bra strap or short skirt should mean a bra strap or a short skirt, but it doesn't - it means the displayer of a bra strap or wearer of a short skirt is, for example, not respectable enough or is (too) available for sex etc." I think clothing does make a statement, and it's naive to pretend it doesn't. One of the options available to women/girls and far less to men/boys (privilege? curse?) is the chance to "look sexy" and we all know how it's done. In other contexts people on Mumsnet have expressed horror over the idea of young girls being sexualised, but what right do the girls have to do it to themselves, in a school setting? The option of clothing that isn't taken as a sexual statement is available, and many girls select it (or are forced to by their parents). In the case of those who don't, is it perfectly all right and a legitimate personal choice? (Bearing in mind that choices aren't made in a vacuum.)

Let's please separate this from "slut shaming"! I'm not saying this is perfectly OK or perfectly awful--just suggesting that we'd be better off to acknowledge what's happening. It is sexualised bahaviour, and they are kids. We don't know what to say about it, do we?

To add a little item about the headmaster--I think he's not telling the truth about his concerns. He feels the need to present it as an educational issue by saying "Girls in skimpy clothing distract the boys", but what he'd really like to say (if he's thought it through to that extent) is "It makes me uncomfortable to see teenaged girls presenting themselves in a sexual manner in my school".

Now about to vanish for the weekend, in uncontroversial clothing.

Children are not "sexualising themselves" they are following fashion.

Anyone who looks at a schoolgirl in a short skirt and thinks they are deliberately sending out "signals" about their sexual availability has got a problem IMO. Any normal person thinks "there is a schoolgirl wearing attire in keeping with current prevailing fashions", if they think anything at all.

When a man or a schoolboy wears a pair of shorts do certain sections of the general public think wow what a slag he's asking for it? No they don't.

It's the attitudes towards women and girls that need to be changed.

These comments about female school attire have been going for decades, it's the same old story. And the story is about sexism, and females being objectified, not about clothes "sending signals".

I was the poster that said I do not care about the length of DD's skirt.

For the last 30 years, school girls have been wearing short skirts. DD is 12. Her school skirt is as long in comparison to her legs as it was all the way through primary school at 3, 5, 7, 9, 11. It is the same length as everyone else's. She isn't trying to be sexy now and she wasn't at 3. Anyone looking at the length of school girls' skirts and perceiving it as sexy, that is about them not the girls. People in general are not looking at teen boys in shorts doing PE and believing the length of the shorts is an attempt by the boys to be sexy.

As for coloured bra straps, it is the case that bra style tops (for girls who are still developing) and teen bras generally come in bright colours with pictures of birds, cats, beach scenes etc on them don't feel ready to leave childhood behind and move into 'adult' underwear. The same applies to a lot of brightly coloured pants for teen boys. I doubt anybody sees the waistband of DS's bright pants and thinks too sexy, should wear white to appear more demure, or indeed his vest, clearly visible through his school shirt.

A girl in a white bra and a school shirt would show far more of her physique. I used to work in an office where white shirts were required, and every time the sun shone through the windows, every nipple and bra seam was visible, unless the bra was padded, but of course girls wearing padded bras to hide the outline of their developing breast buds from public scrutiny is also considered too sexy by some.

As it happens, DD's main source of sexual harrasment is from an older teen boy who is a foot/tight fetishist who keeps taking her shoes off on the bus so he can rub her 'shiny tight toes.' I look forward to whatever bullshit advice posters have on what kind of footwear DD should choose to avoid other people judging her and touching her based on their perception of what message her start rite lace up brogues are giving others.

I'm the one who was scandalized at the length of school skirts these days - it was an automatic reaction because we just wouldn't have been able to get away with it (they even checked what colour socks we were wearing). Analysing it, it's flaunting the rules, not the legs that causes the shock for me.

I'm surprised at the number who wear skirts rather than trousers too.

I still think that the underwear police can take a running jump though. I really don't think that kids today give a hoot about the colour/visibility of their bra straps.

...and look, an excuse to dig out that photo of the cast of St Trinians movie!!

you couldn't make it up.

on which subject; many people do look worse with make up on, and most teens definitely do (what DID I look like?). But stopping underwear from showing through some tops is almost impossible. So women wear bras. Learn to live with that.

Special, the point there is it came across as "make up would be fine except they look worse in it" rather than "make up is against the rules" or "make up is allowed by the rules"

ah, I see. Not what I read but I take your point.

the best solution would be 'no makeup in uniform' (stops them wasting time with it when they should be listening in class) but good luck enforcing that one!