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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 18/06/2014 09:36

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SmallPress · 18/06/2014 10:13

You can't possibly know what it's like to be trans

Is this really true for all people who don't id as trans? I've had body dysmorphia (connected to pregnancy and disability, not sex or gender). I've also for years wondered if I was trans - because I don't have an internal sense of being a woman, just am treated like a woman by society, have my life choices limited and so on, because of what is between my legs. I've finally come to the conclusion that I'm not trans (because if I surgically transitioned I'd just be looking at the same circs but from the opposite side of the mirror, so no change except a lot of paperwork, and I think the privilege I'm most missing out on is being socialised as a male, which I can't change), but I'm also not not-trans, either. I've seriously considered presenting as a man when I get older - not transitioning, but socially - but I don't think my body type would let me get away with it. As I said upthread, I think there's a lot of people in my general state of mind, once they begin to think about it. It isn't a particularly unusual state of being, but pretty normal, IMO.

So - I suppose that partly answers why more people are transitioning now than before: because they can, and because it is more discussed. I think the other answer is that gender roles are being more and more strictly enforced, and so this "I like dolls so I must be a girl", I like ties and machinery so I must be a boy" is getting more traction, when we should be moving away from all that shit.

And I have seen trans people online talk about their lack of dysphoria, and I've certainly seen plenty of trans women speak about their comfort with having a penis, how it's a "female organ" quite, quite different from a man's penis.

tl;dr: There doesn't seem to seem to be one size fits all with either trans or non-trans experiences, so I am not convinced that none of us who don't id as trans can possibly understand what it's like.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 18/06/2014 10:33

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 10:43

Small Press, you may want to look at this paper. As far as I know, it is the only study of symptoms of gender dysphoria in people who are not trans. 63% of people sometimes wish to be another gender, making it the normal experience of gender, and 40% were sometimes discontent with their sexed body, which by definition is dysphoric. That is from the bottom of page 23, but there are lots of other stats in there. The range of intensity of feelings of non conformity to gender and sexed body were the same in trans and non trans individuals.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/19419899.2013.830640

CailinDana · 18/06/2014 10:51

For me, "feeling like a woman" is about feeling vulnerable and exposed. I think all women feel like that to a certain extent but for me it is much stronger than the average because of my background. It's something that has held me back hugely and my next aim is to deal with it. I know I'll never feel fully safe, as the world is just not safe for me, but the level of fear I have is not proportional or healthy. Dealing with that fear by wanting to become a man would also not be healthy IMO.

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CailinDana · 18/06/2014 11:48

Again, all I see in trans ideas is disordered thinking.

Kim, you don't want to be a man and you feel that in a very strong way, such that it affects your life. I sympathise, that must be tough.
Your solution to not wanting to be a man is to remove healthy organs and take hormones that could damage your body. To me that seems an extreme and disproportionate response to what you're feeling.

I've not wanted to live, in a strong and desperate way. No one who didn't hate me would agree with me that taking my life was a good response to that desire. The answer to not wanting to live is to determine why that person doesn't want to live and to protect their health along the way.

To me a good response to you not wanting to be a man is to determine why that is and to encourage you to stay healthy, both physically and mentally while doing so. Agreeing to let you fill yourself full of dangerous hormones and undergo irreversible and dangerous surgery seems like an utterly mad response to your obvious distress.

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SmallPress · 18/06/2014 12:00

almondcakes that's really fascinating, thanks, and I'll read it with a lot of interest. It's a bit like that "we are all non-binary" article that was doing the rounds a few days ago, which I wanted to cheer.

We experience sexism and misogyny because of how the world perceives us, not how we perceive ourselves.

CailinDana · 18/06/2014 12:05

Exactly SmallPress. I think a lot of men genuinely think we revel in being sex objects, that we love being admired and drooled at. I think everyone, men and women alike, like to be thought of as attractive, but enjoying being an object or a plaything is a very niche activity that I would say the vast majority of women don't partake of. That's why I worry about the idea that women choose to be strippers or prostitutes - it feeds into the notion that women enjoy being used. I am a person, I just want to go about my daily business like men do. I do not want to be commented or even admired. I just want to bloody well do things!

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 12:12

The woman who was lead on the paper I linked to has also done a TED talk on there being no such a thing as a male or female brain. She is still researching people's perceptions of their own gender identity, and if anyone feels like doing it, the questionnaire is here:

eu.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_0BWfDkB9kX2tpxW

At the end of the questionnaire it asks if you hold feminist views and queer views, which I think will allow her to produce results which I have wondered about.

Her TED talk is here- only about 15 mins:

english.tau.ac.il/video_gallery/ted-talks-prof-daphna-joel

vesuvia · 18/06/2014 12:26

kim147 wrote - "What do people think transsexuality actually is?"

I think transsexuality is the beliefs and actions of a person who feels that the only way that they can find contentment is by altering their body by surgery and medication to give an external appearance as close as possible to that of the opposite biological sex, combined with full-time adoption of the gender role behaviours defined by patriarchy as appropriate for members of the opposite biological sex.

I think that transsexuality has been hijacked by post-modernist transgenderism ideology. I think transsexuality is now a shrinking part of a growing transgender spectrum.

kim147 wrote - Why has there been a massive increase in referrals?

I think an increase in referrals for transsexuality is dwarfed by a massive increase in referrals for transgenderism

kim147 · 18/06/2014 12:26

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 12:48

I thought the gay cure traditionally was about things like giving people surgery and hormones, compared to now when places like the Pink Practice provide counselling that respects people's identities as gay but tackles some of the psychological issues around gay identity such as societal homophobia.

I don't really know what the treatments are for trans people, but I assume it involves both counselling/therapy and physical interventions. I don't see an exact parallel.

Presumably some of the 'experts' who used to give hormones and surgery moved on to giving them to gender non-conforming people as explicit homophobia in the medical community became less acceptable and once homosexuality was no longer a crime. Or is there no link between the two areas of research and the individuals who have carried out the treatments?

SmallPress · 18/06/2014 12:49

That's pretty close, kim, to the "feminists are aligning with the religious right" slurs I'm seeing a lot elsewhere.

Do you not think that a lot of current, visible trans activism is pretty homophobic?

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:01

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:05

How is it similar? Is anybody claiming that giving people hormones is an effective treatment for homosexuality?

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:07

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kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:09

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:19

I've just had a search and it would appear that India is still giving hormone therapy to gay men and the US is giving hormone therapy to intersex children to make them heterosexual as adults.

So it would seem obvious why people would consider giving hormone treatments as a cure for any kind of non conformity to be a worrying issue. I'm not sure where the parallel is to what you are saying.

Beachcomber · 18/06/2014 13:23

online.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

It's behind a paywall so here is a copy of the content.

Transgender Surgery Isn’t the Solution

A drastic physical change doesn’t address underlying psycho-social troubles.

By Paul McHugh

A man who looks into the mirror and sees himself as a woman
Getty Images

The government and media alliance advancing the transgender cause has gone into overdrive in recent weeks. On May 30, a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services review board ruled that Medicare can pay for the “reassignment” surgery sought by the transgendered—those who say that they don’t identify with their biological sex. Earlier last month Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that he was “open” to lifting a ban on transgender individuals serving in the military. Time magazine, seeing the trend, ran a cover story for its June 9 issue called “The Transgender Tipping Point: America’s next civil rights frontier.”

Yet policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of “assumption” like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one’s maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption “I’m ugly.” These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects’ minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.

For the transgendered, this argument holds that one’s feeling of “gender” is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one’s mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society’s tolerance of this “personal truth” but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for “transgender equality,” the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges.

With this argument, advocates for the transgendered have persuaded several states—including California, New Jersey and Massachusetts—to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor. That government can intrude into parents’ rights to seek help in guiding their children indicates how powerful these advocates have become.

How to respond? Psychiatrists obviously must challenge the solipsistic concept that what is in the mind cannot be questioned. Disorders of consciousness, after all, represent psychiatry’s domain; declaring them off-limits would eliminate the field. Many will recall how, in the 1990s, an accusation of parental sex abuse of children was deemed unquestionable by the solipsists of the “recovered memory” craze.

You won’t hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into “sex-reassignment surgery”—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a “satisfied” but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

There are subgroups of the transgendered, and for none does “reassignment” seem apt. One group includes male prisoners like Pvt. Bradley Manning, the convicted national-security leaker who now wishes to be called Chelsea. Facing long sentences and the rigors of a men’s prison, they have an obvious motive for wanting to change their sex and hence their prison. Given that they committed their crimes as males, they should be punished as such; after serving their time, they will be free to reconsider their gender.

Another subgroup consists of young men and women susceptible to suggestion from “everything is normal” sex education, amplified by Internet chat groups. These are the transgender subjects most like anorexia nervosa patients: They become persuaded that seeking a drastic physical change will banish their psycho-social problems. “Diversity” counselors in their schools, rather like cult leaders, may encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery. Treatments here must begin with removing the young person from the suggestive environment and offering a counter-message in family therapy.

Then there is the subgroup of very young, often prepubescent children who notice distinct sex roles in the culture and, exploring how they fit in, begin imitating the opposite sex. Misguided doctors at medical centers including Boston’s Children’s Hospital have begun trying to treat this behavior by administering puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous—even though the drugs stunt the children’s growth and risk causing sterility. Given that close to 80% of such children would abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated, these medical interventions come close to child abuse. A better way to help these children: with devoted parenting.

At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. “Sex change” is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:24

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WhentheRed · 18/06/2014 13:24

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kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:25

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kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:26

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:32

The parallels would surely be:

Homophobic doctor:
Homosexuals are real and are a small minority.
Many of them, including children, should have medical physiological treatments to make them better- including hormone treatments and genital surgery.
Only being attracted to people of the same biological sex is something that needs to be cured as it is harmful to society.

Trans activist:
People whose gender does not match their sex are real and are a small minority.
Many of them, including children, should have medical physiological treatments to make them better - including hormone treatments and genital surgery.
Only being attracted to people of the same biological sex is something that needs to be cured as it is harmful to society.

(Old school) feminist:
People whose gender does not match their sex are real and are the majority.
It isn't a medical condition or a pathology. No cure is needed, but neither is a ban on cosmetic surgery needed if people want it.
There is nothing wrong with people being solely attracted to people of the same biological sex.

almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:40

Kim, I don't think anybody should have any form of surgery for psychological reasons without some form of counselling. I would not recommend people have surgical abortion (as opposed to earlier drug induced abortion) without counselling either. I wouldn't ban consensual medical treatment of adults.

But those are not my decisions to make, because I'm not an expert on medical ethics.

I do think as a society we should view surgical and hormonal treatment of non conforming individuals as having a long, dark, very recent and ongoing history and that is relevant to talking about these issues.