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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone help me get my head round this alleged rape?

276 replies

StormyBrid · 30/05/2014 22:52

A couple of years ago, there was an incident between two people I used to know but haven't really seen for years. I keep coming back to it and pondering it, because I just don't know what to make of it. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

I'll call her F and him M, for clarity. And all I know is hearsay, but confirmed by many witnesses. For some months there had been escalating flirtation between them, at social gatherings, with alcohol involved. F has a partner. On the night in question, their flirting was commented on by many people - both of them could have been described as up for it. By the time they disappeared into a bedroom, both were incredibly drunk.

No one knows what happened in that room. F says she remembers nothing, but it was clear from, ahem, the state of her trouser region that sex had happened. M says he barely remembers what happened, but that F was very enthusiastically consenting during.

Here's where my confusion comes in. M says F consented, but F was clearly too drunk for that consent to be valid. F says it was rape. So far, so good. But M was just as drunk, and so equally couldn't give valid consent. So surely if he's guilty of rape then she is too? Can two people rape each other at the same time? Wouldn't that cancel out?

OP posts:
BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 31/05/2014 14:46

Mine was more of a technical point: there can only be an assault if there is sexual contact without valid consent and as M's view is that he gave valid consent, there cannot be an assault on him.

So when you asked if the view if witnesses that each were equally drunk meant that M had potentially been assaulted to, I was saying no to that.

StormyBrid · 31/05/2014 14:56

Ah, gotcha. That makes a lot of sense. In fact it pretty nicely gets me over my original mental stumbling block. Thank you!

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 31/05/2014 16:16

Yes, I like that definition as well, BillnTed. Nice and clear.

onedev · 31/05/2014 18:41

It sounds like a drunken shag to me, not rape. If they were equally drunk (without coercion on his part to get her drunk / more drunk so that she would have sex with him) & she gave consent at the time, why is it his responsibility to then police her actions?

itsbetterthanabox · 01/06/2014 01:25

This thread is depressing.
Let's all call the victim a liar based on absolutely no information! It so sad it's just assumed women lie.

SolidGoldBrass · 01/06/2014 02:44

I think it would be just as much of a mistake to think that women are always telling the truth as it would be to think that they always lie. I am mostly inclined to believe women who say they have been raped/assaulted/abused even if they were drunk at the time, or wearing a miniskirt, or hd danced with the man or something.

In the case of the OP's friend, going on the information the OP has given/has access to (OP wasn't there on the night in question) this sounds possibly as though the woman might be talking about sex she regretted or didn't really want rather than sex she didn't want at all and which was imposed on her when she was too piseed to register an objection or get away from the man and his dick.
I do think there is a difference between agreeing to sex or engaging in sex because you think it's the polite thing to do/you feel you sort of owe it to the man because you had a snog earlier/all men want sex all the time and women just put up with it.... and agreeing to let a man have sex on you because you think that if you say no he will either stick his dick in you anyway or he will kill you.

iK8 · 01/06/2014 03:08

There is a third possibility: both are telling the truth. He believed consent was being given and she believes she did not consent.

What I will be teaching my son is that he needs to clearly establish consent and if his prospective sexual partner is very drunk she cannot consent so he she wait until she has sobered up a bit. What I will be teaching my daughter is that getting so drunk you can't remember what's going on is a stupid idea because you could seriously hurt yourself or make decisions you will seriously regret (nothing in particular about being a target for a rapist or any of the victim blaming shtick though)... and I'll be teaching my son that one too.

StormyBrid · 01/06/2014 08:02

If I may obliquely refer to another thread for a moment, the reason I posted here rather than chat was to try and reduce the possibility of the thread descending into speculation about whether F was lying. In terms of the question I was getting at in the OP, whether she was lying wasn't really relevant, because whether she consented at the time or not, she is absolutely right to say she was raped on the technical grounds that she was far too drunk. It bothered me because so far as I'm aware he was equally so, but Bill's post near the end of the thread has explained to me nicely why it's not like that - because M viewed his ability to consent differently to F.

I just hate it, because it means F has been raped, and I fervently wish she hadn't been, and it means M is branded a rapist in a world that still sees rapists as violent and predatory, which based on this incident and the lack of any other incidents he's not.

OP posts:
summerflower · 01/06/2014 08:19

I am sorry, I am only on page 2, but I think it behoves a man not to get into a position where he is making a drunken guesstimate about whether an also drunk woman is up for sex or not. The law is clear that a woman cannot consent when drunk; the onus is on a man to ensure he has consent, if he is drunk, his own judgement on that matter is impaired.

AICM · 01/06/2014 08:35

summerflower

Could you post to link to the relevant case or law. This is the most recent case I could find:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/drunken-consent-to-sex-is-still-consent-judge-rules-516722.html

I'm very uncomfortable with this case as I think she was raped but this, it would seem, formed the basis of the law from 2005. Is there anything more recent?

CaptChaos · 01/06/2014 08:56

The CPS Legal Guidelines say that if a woman is so drunk as to have temporarily lost her capacity to consent, then that is rape. However Case Law suggests that that would be incredibly difficult to prove conclusively, so therefore a woman passed out through willingly imbibed drink who wakes up with a man having sex on her would have a difficult time proving she had been raped, as long as the rapist says that he reasonably believed she consented.

The thing with the OP is that, M obviously believes that F consented to sex despite being very drunk. F says she didn't, because she was too drunk to do so. But case law would suggest that, if it came to court, she would lose because she had willingly drunk what she did and that M had reasonable belief that she was lucid enough to consent, and that she had done so.

On balance of probabilities, I believe that M probably did rape F, but that it wouldn't result in conviction if brought to court.

unrealhousewife · 01/06/2014 09:05

Aicm, that case you linked to states that it was because she didn't remember whether she consented that caused the case to fail.

Had she been able to remember her refusal that would have been rape. Not a legal person but there must be a difference.

AICM · 01/06/2014 09:15

Unreal

I think you're right. The fact she can't remember is key but that MUST mean that many actual rapes go unpunished. To try to be fair I do believe that a person accused of any crime as to be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before they can be found guilty but that must mean MANY rapists walk free.

CaptChaos

Thank you for your reply you clearly know far more that me.
On the subject of "lost her capacity to consent" what does this actually mean? If a woman is VERY drunk and does say "yes" of imply yes your actively having sex does the law say these situation show she did have the capacity to consent?

Minnieisthedevilmouse · 01/06/2014 13:00

Hello, I've read most but may have missed this.... Rape is penis in vagina. So we are assuming more than heavy petting as F says it was rape and apparently was sore so felt as if she had sex. Clothes had signs of sex on both. Well, she could have felt that way by fingers possibly? Equally if both drunk we presently seem to be assuming he was on top. It is possible she was. Someone originally asked could they have raped each other. Someone else said no (I think) but if he's too drunk to remember as is she could she have if she went on top? This point interested me, could a woman push it too far for a man this way and he be left feeling violated?

Yes he could push her off, but that's a line trotted out to women "why didn't you struggle" and we generally now say victims often don't....

This thread is interesting. I'm as confused as op. It's causing thought.

Minnieisthedevilmouse · 01/06/2014 13:03

Just realised nobody ever in my life has explicitly asked me "do you want sex". Is that a thing now? Do people ask that? It's always been assumed from I guess body language

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 13:10

"could a woman push it too far for a man this way and he be left feeling violated? "

Yes, absolutely. But that is not how M feels in this case.

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 14:06

Can I ask a question ?

I ve been in a similar scenario eg woke up with a bloke whom I'd had sex with. Vaguely remembered the night before but not details. I couldn't remember consenting as such but I know I would have IYSWIM because well I wanted to at the time I remember that much but I was clearly far too drunk to give what I'd term meaningful consent.

But if we were both equally drunk and I was happy with my non meaning full consent I'm sure I would have given what does that mKe what we did ?

Is it just a drunken mess on both sides ?

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 14:08

If you are happy with what happened then there was no assault.

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 14:11

Well I figured that but technically neither of us could give meaningful consent so I just wondered what the deal is with that.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 14:15

What do you mean?

If either of you felt you were assaulted, you would have a case to say so ie you were not in a state to give valid consent.

Since you don't feel you were, you weren't.

DenzelWashington · 01/06/2014 14:15

F was raped if she was too drunk to consent.

M may have been so drunk that he didn't really address his mind to F's level of drunkenness and whether she was consenting. I can see that many people would feel 'Oh, but that's not rape, he didn't really know what he was doing, he didn't intend to hurt or coerce her'.

I don't think that is how it works, though. M did intend to have sex with F, who was not consenting or too drunk to give valid consent, however you want to put it.

And, for obvious reasons of policy, we don't let people avoid liability for crimes on the grounds that they were drunk, whatever the crime is. So M's criminal liability isn't altered by the fact he was drunk.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 14:15

Ace post, Denzel.

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 14:20

Well I mean no none of us feel that we were assaulted no I guess I just am trying to explore the situation being no so clear cut.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 14:25

But it is clear cut.

If consent exists, whatever outward appearance (say sex in complete silence, no sighs or groans or words) there is no assault.

It might not be clear cut when judging a complaint, but if no one is complaining, no judgement is needed.

Say my friend takes my car without asking. I don't mind. No theft.

My friend takes my car without asking. I do mind. Theft.

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 14:27

I was referring to the being so drunk that you might be considered to not be able to consent. I don't think that was exactly the case here I was just interested in opinions.

The car analogy is interesting. I'd not thought of it in that way.

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