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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do we need men

68 replies

AICM · 29/05/2014 19:35

Not what you’re thinking!

I mean why do we need men to make sexist comments when so many women seem to do such a good job on their behalf?

I teach in a Primary School were the staff are 90% female. Here is a flavour of just some of the many comments I’ve heard recently:

When a woman applied to be our new caretaker “We need a man to fix things surely?”

When discussing a young female member of staff the word “slut” is used a lot.

When a man bought a new Ford Ka “That’s girl’s car!”

Passing endless negative comments about other woman’s weight and appearance.

Referring to the office staff as “the girls in the office”.

“One of the male teachers should run the football team. It’s man’s job.”

“I’d hate to work for a female head. Female bosses are always bitches.”

“Why would a man want to teach the little ones? They’d never cope!” (At our school a man does the teach little ones and he’s brilliant)

When a male TA (teaching assistant) was appointed the other TAs were angry because they didn’t a want a man in the resource room when they were working in there.

And the best one, remember this is coming from a teacher, “Girls aren’t good at maths.”

Just about the only people who are not sexist are the men!

I do challenge these comments when I hear them but it’s so awful that they make them in the first place.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 29/05/2014 22:01

Big yawn at montmorency1's contributions.

Other than that, agree with everybody else.

OP, try googling "internalized sexism". finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/

TheSameBoat · 29/05/2014 22:48

I feel like I've internalised sexism because when I hear of someone being raped I automatically look for reasons why it happened and think "oh I wouldn't have put myself in that position".

And then rational feminist thinking takes over and I realise that the only reason for rape is the rapist's active choice.

Of course the first reaction is far more comforting and that's possibly why so many women adhere to it. We are convincing ourselves we are in control.

Damn you feminism!

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 23:52

"All women are complicit. That is why if they do not change then nothing changes"
Women are only complicit because of the punishments on offer for stepping out of line. If those threats weren't there then women wouldn't be complicit. Tackle the root of the problem not the symptoms.

"The other flaw in your thinking is that male "oppression" is in the West substantially cultural rather than institutional, and is thus much less affected by fiat decree."
Thanks for pointing out my flaws in thinking. I'm so grateful. can you be any more patronising Nice that you put oppression in inverted commas too. Just to ensure we know it's not real oppression. If I could actually be arsed I would dispute your position on the influence of government on women's oppression and whether the oppression western women are subjected to is institutional. And whether that in fact matters. Not sure why are you limiting the conversation to western women though? I wasn't.

"I would not bother to seek out perspectives other than my own." You aren't really seeking out other perspectives are you though. You are just debating and theorising other people's oppression. Which is a bit shit really.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:09

Women are only complicit because of the punishments on offer for stepping out of line.

As administered by women just as much as men.

"If those threats weren't there then women wouldn't be complicit."

Utterly ridiculous. Women are socialized in a certain way, meaning they internalize and propagate values and norms just as well as men do. Do not pretend that women have any less social agency than men.

"Tackle the root of the problem not the symptoms."

That's the idea...

"Thanks for pointing out my flaws in thinking. I'm so grateful. can you be any more patronising"

I am so sorry, did I interrupt some circle-jerk you had scheduled? I should know better than to offer reasoned debate on an Internet debate forum.

"Not sure why are you limiting the conversation to western women though?"

I am not; I am pointing out that the situation is qualitatively different, and so must be treated in a different way. It matters as to the solutions, in other words.

"You are just debating"

That's why I'm fucking here, Jesus Christ.

22honey · 30/05/2014 00:17

Christ, yet another attempt to berate and humiliate a poster using ad nauseum sarcasm purely because they state the obvious.

What mont is saying is correct. There are billions of women who truly believe they are inherently different to men thus expectations of behaviour, conduct and all else are different too.

Other women are the worst for bullying, criticizing and putting down other women for things like their sexual promiscuity, weight and appearance.

There is no way I buy the argument they all hold these opinions because they are told or socialized to. Its not inconceivable to accept many people when given all the facts still believe men and women are different creatures.

22honey · 30/05/2014 00:18

I also cannot believe a poster is being nastily taken up on about the fact they are looking to debate on an discussion forum.

Why on earth else would they be here?

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:23

So why are you insisting that we tackle the symptoms i.e. women's behaviour? The women's behaviour described in the OP are not because they are the oppressors it is because they are oppressed. And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street.

Women's agency is more limited than men's because they are the one's being oppressed.

Glad you've admitted you aren't here to listen to other people's perspectives. Got rid of that charade then.

gamescompendium · 30/05/2014 00:25

This is why both my and DD1 tend to find chatting to men easy and women/girls sodding hard work. M

Far too many women are gossipy, appearance obsessed and unpleasant to other women.

Oh look, yet another example of what the OP is talking about! Hmm

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:25

But do keep in mind, differences between men and women are ultimately beside the point. Fundamentally it is an ethical argument that it is not just for women to have less privilege or right than men.

That the sexes are not identical does not validate undervaluation of femalehood or female action.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:31

"So why are you insisting that we tackle the symptoms i.e. women's behaviour?"

Because it is part of the problem. Why do you insist on describing women as somehow causally inert with respect to men, but not vice versa?

"And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street."

None of those are systematically in response to perceived transgression against gender norms. Heck, the latter is itself a gender norm!

"Women's agency is more limited than men's because they are the one's being oppressed."

Men's agency is equivalent to women's agency.

"Glad you've admitted you aren't here to listen to other people's perspectives. Got rid of that charade then."

Listen - don't be a twit.

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:36

OK I'm disengaging. You clearly don't recognise (or maybe not understand) structural oppression at least not in relation to men's oppression of women, mont.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:00

It's tricky to follow posts when people reach for language too complicated for their capacities, mont. Do you mean, you're struggling with scallops' description, or her terminology? I'm not quite clear what a figurative insult would be, but perhaps that is something I don't need to know? Confused

I don't think it's very nice to claim 'feminist' is a slur, do you?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:01

(Is it just me who sees 'fool' in a Mr T accent there, btw?)

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:07

Now now, LRD, there's no need for you to submit to gag rule just yet - you've only just arrived!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:08

This is what gag rule means, mont: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_rule

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:10

Glad to see it all checks out, then.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:13

I'm not quite sure if you are coming across as you intend to come across.

I'm slightly creeped out by the gag rule comment now.

I suggest you have a look at Talk Guidelines, and stop insulting people who are trying to answer your questions.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 30/05/2014 01:13
Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:17

"people who are trying to answer your questions."

That's pretty funny, actually.

MiniTheMinx · 30/05/2014 01:21

Dominant ideologies, are just that and they go unchallenged because they assume a "naturalness" or common sense understanding. Of course women are subject to social conditioning and ideology. We are never individuals, we are subject from the day we are born, to internalise this thinking as though it were our own. We think this is our own self generated belief, we find it reflected back at us, this affirms the ideology. Of course women have to change. They have to see it for what it is, and challenge it, and thankfully that is what feminism allows us to do.

TeiTetua · 30/05/2014 02:13

Mostly in response to Scallopsrgreat, with things like this:

"So why are you insisting that we tackle the symptoms i.e. women's behaviour? The women's behaviour described in the OP are not because they are the oppressors it is because they are oppressed."

I think this needs more consideration. Suppose, hypothetically, that a lot of women actually were enthusiastic supporters of some aspects of sexismand they acted as described in the original message from AICM. If you say they do that "because they're oppressed" that's good feminism in one waywomen fail to support other women because they're being coerced--but on the other hand, you're taking away genuine autonomy from them. Basically, do women have the right to be sexist, and own their actions and take responsibility for them? I'd hate to think that if someone disagrees with us, we say they're somehow deluded or forced to do what they're doing, and we won't approve of them until they conform to our much more intelligent view of the world. Maybe they say the same about us!

And then this:
"And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street."

In this case the punishments are in the form of disapproval and insults by women, no physical violence involved. So why talk about men's violent actions, unless the objective is to blame everything on men? If we escalate from the one to the other with no reason, it looks as if we'd much rather talk about what men do than what women do. My feeling is that the way we pressure each other to behave in our present society is much more of a cooperative effort between women and men than we'd like to admit (though very few women will condone rape or murder). But a lot of women will say in one way or another "Boys will be boys". And "Girls should be girls" too.

FloraFox · 30/05/2014 05:51

Nail on the head, mini

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 10:06

Can I just clarify where I am coming from with regards to women's behaviour (bearing in mind I am formulating these thoughts on the fly a bit).

The premise of the OP is that men don't need to oppress us as women are doing such a good job of it. I am not denying that women can do a great job upholding the patriarchy in certain arenas, what I am saying is that what underpins all this and actually creates the oppression is male violence and male dominance. Men don't have to threaten or police us everyday to do that. They've set up the structures in place whereby this isn't necessary and they are more than happy to let women take over the mantle of maintaining certain areas of that structure (although about 1500 women raped a week in the UK; 1 in 4 women the victim of a sexual assault and over 2 women a week being murdered at the hands of men shows that male violence is being perpetuated with frightening regularity).

The OP in her understandable annoyance and frustration has glossed over all the ways in which men perpetuate abuse and the fact that they are benefactors of keeping women 'in line'. And this is what happens. By focusing on women's behaviour, men's behaviour is sidelined when in fact it is their violence that is at the root of oppression. Surely our energies should be going into tackling the root of our oppression?

Most of my response about changing women's behaviour was in response to mont's "women must be changed" as if we were defective. I do think that most women's behaviour will change after the patriarchy is dismantled. If you look at the changes in the last century and how women's behaviour has changed, the vast majority of it has occurred after we got more freedom. So how much women's behaviour 'must' change in order for that to happen I don't know. Or even if it is actually a change in behaviour or women just pushing through with want they want to be allowed to do.

Having said that what Mini said about feminism allowing women to see their oppression, change their attitudes and fight oppression is spot on. This, to me, is allowing women to follow their true path rather than changing their behaviour per say. I suppose I think women are in a state of changed behaviour at the moment because of oppression and feminism and dismantling the patriarchy puts it all back to 'normal'.

But ultimately the conscious-raising and changing attitudes and fighting oppression is all about changing male behaviour and once men stop being violent and stop dominating women we will be freer, have more agency and be able to behave more naturally (wherever that lies - which is a whole different discussion!).

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 10:10

TeiTetua with regards your point about women taking responsibility for their behaviour, I think overall women are made to take responsibility for their behaviour far more than men. It is men's behaviour that is excused, minimised, accepted much more than women's behaviour.