Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

[StormyBrid]

It doesn't sound silly in the slightest. Sexual violence leaves a bad taste in one's mouth (metaphorically speaking) even when it's hypothetical. When it's actually happened... If you talk then you're putting your friends in a position of having to face the horrifying reality of it. You don't particularly want thoughts about a real rape in your head; why would you want your friends to have those thoughts in their heads? Totally understandable viewpoint. But if you do tell them, and they're good friends, they'll be touched that you felt able to share it, and they'll want to help you.

The shame you mention fits in there too, I think. Rape is a shameful thing, so it's hard to talk about. But the shame isn't yours, or shouldn't be. Why should you feel shame for a crime inflicted upon you?

[CailinDana]

Indeed. And yet I do.

I once told a "friend" whose reaction revealed that he was in fact a rapist himself. Not a pleasant experience.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

That's awful cailin. None of us like to think of it, but we do know rapists. Men we trust.

[CailinDana]

I know at least two. Both are in long term relationships, both have good jobs and are "normal" men.

[CailinDana]

The "friend" that I told actually said, in all seriousness, that women were sexually assaulting men by wearing revealing clothes because it "forced" them to rape them. This is a guy with a PhD who works at a university with lots of undergrads. Scary shit.

[StormyBrid]

Egads, no wonder you're reluctant to tell anyone else! But would it have been better not to tell him, and so not to find out he's likely a rapist? You don't have to answer that one, just something to consider.

As for the shame, I wish I knew how to help. I found biting the bullet and telling people helped on that front, because the people I told got so angry on my behalf. The shame stemmed from a belief that it was my fault. Other people's anger on my behalf helped me, over a very long period of time, to stop blaming myself. But I was abused as a child, not raped as an adult, which makes people's reactions a little different, in that no one would blame a child, whereas some people would (wrongly) blame an adult. Do you think your friend you've been talking to recently is likely to think you were in any way to blame?

[CailinDana]

No, it's very unlikely. He has told me some difficult stuff about himself, mainly very severe bullying while at school, so there is a sense of trust there.

[CailinDana]

I was also abused as a child Stormy (and raped as an adult). In fact, the guy who raped me was one of the people I told about the childhood abuse. Hmmm, I suppose my fear has a lot of foundation doesn't it? Now I'm sort of thinking there's something wrong with me. One "counsellor" I went to said I was "too trusting" which of course came across to me as "you were to blame for the abuse." Perhaps she was right though.

Sorry to hear you were abused, but really glad that you've had good support from friends. I agree that other people's anger is very healing, particularly as my mother's reaction to the abuse was that I should get over it. Nothing else could be quite as bad as my own mother thinking the abuse was nothing and that I don't matter.

[StormyBrid]

If the person you told had been a decent bloke rather than someone I'd quite happily go after with a wrench, would you be too trusting? Child abuse warps how you see people, how you interpret their motives, it skews your perspective. If that skewed perspective led you to trust someone who wasn't worthy of that trust... That doesn't mean there's something innately wrong with you. It just means you didn't come out of those experiences unscathed.

[StormyBrid]

The counsellor strikes me as victim-blaming. Your fault for trusting the wrong person? No. His fault for being the wrong person (ie a rapist).

[Greenwayslide]

Hi just ask you a question. Many radical feminists believe that sexism is part of the very foundations of our society to the point that in order to create your version of an ideal world you would have to rebuild society from scratch. Just curious as to how you feel this could come about?

[CailinDana]

On an intellectual level I agree Stormy. It's hard to believe it in my heart, though I am really working on that. The telling people thing is part of that - I want to own it, and not let it own me.

Greenway - I'm not a radical feminist, only because I don't understand it well enough rather than because I disagree with it. I do agree though that very fundamental things have to change. Even the good guys that I know have a foundation of misogyny in their thinking, though they are not aware of it until you draw it out of them. Our society and practically all of our structures are built in such a way as to favour men. Everything has to change, but slowly IMO, not in one fell swoop.

[scallopsrgreat]

This is really a casual chat thread Greenwayslide. I think that question deserves a thread on its own tbh. If you feel like it start one as it is an interesting question.

But I would say that most feminists think sexism is structural and in the fabric of society, not just radical feminists.

I'm quite shocked at your counsellor Cailin. She seemed to have no idea about the nature of abuse or rape.

And just in case any of you think the fight has been won I present to you: The Lingerie Fighting Championships. I kid you not!

[Greenwayslide]

Guess I will start a thread thanks.

[StormyBrid]

I think that's the hardest part, Cailin. Squaring what you know to be true with how you feel.

I think we're pioneers of sorts, when we talk about our experiences. One day, I hope, the world will be such that sexual violence simply isn't tolerated, and in that world it will be a lot easier to stand up and speak about what we've been through. But in order to get to that world we have to speak out now, and in the current world that can be very difficult and very painful.

[CailinDana]

Scallops, that counsellor was a total twat and hurt me rather than helping me. She looked disgusted when I tried to talk about the abuse and told me to write it all down and bury it - in other words, she didn't want to hear it. She was fucking atrocious.

I like the idea that we are pioneers Stormy :) I find that thought extraordinarily reassuring in fact.

[scallopsrgreat]

OMG . That is just awful, Cailin. I hope you have seen better counsellors since and she didn't put you off the process. So sorry you went through that.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Cailin

[StormyBrid]

Happy to reassure - makes me feel marginally less useless, and I'm feeling very useless this evening after a two hour bedtime fiasco.

Any interest in trying a different counsellor? Bad ones are worse than useless, but good ones are worth their weight in gold, they can just take a lot of finding.

[Dragonlette]

Cailin that all sounds awful. Your cousellor sound like an utter tosspot and I'm sorry she made you feel like that. The friend you spoke to the other day sounds like he would be open to talking about it sensitively if you choose to. I know it's hard and your previous experience of telling "friends" would put you off massively.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Jesus, cailin. That's horrible.

Some counsellors are absolute shites, it makes me really angry. I know there are good ones who've looked after mates of mine, but some of them are appalling.

[CailinDana]

Thanks all.

I did go to another counsellor who was...better but still not great. She listened quite well but towards the end started telling me about her own life and said I was "perfect" and that she would miss me. It all got a bit odd and overfamiliar and I found it confusing.
Strangely enough the person who helped me the most was a psychiatric nurse years later when I had a breakdown, who was very no-nonsense, listened to what I said and was very direct. She technically didn't follow the whole counsellor thing of letting me come to my own conclusions, but it was exactly what I needed. She was the one who pointed out to me how awful my mother's response to the abuse was and that was a huge step forward for me. I really needed someone to respond to me as all I had up to that point was denial and refusal to listen (from parents and from best friend). Someone actually saying "You know what, what happened was fucking awful and the fact that your mother didn't say that is just shit," was massively healing.

I do feel I could benefit from counselling again, although my past experiences do make me wary. I'm not really interested in going over it all in detail, and to be honest, like I say I think a big part of what I need to do is own what happened and not hide it like my mother wanted me to.

Overall I think the most damaging thing was the reaction of my mother. It shoved me back into myself and it has taken me years to pull myself out again.

[CailinDana]

In fact, coming on MN and the FWR boards have been a massive part of my healing. I have realised over the years that the message I got from my mother and the society I grew up in (Catholic Ireland) was that I just didn't matter. I was taught to put up with so much shit and feminism, which I have come to mainly through these boards, has said "you do matter, you don't have to accept shit." I have to heal from the abuse, yes, but they are just things that happened, and bad things happen to everyone.
What I really have to heal from is the idea that I deserved those things, and that no one cares if they hurt me. I care. I care about that little girl who was so terrified and so alone. And I'm healing her, with help from other women here. I don't really need a counsellor to do that. I don't need to talk about the details. I just need other women (and men, although less so) to say "that shouldn't have happened. It wasn't your fault," and to just listen and not be disgusted and not want to shove me under the carpet.

[CailinDana]

Of all things I would like to look in my mother's eyes and ask her what made her devalue her own daughter so much. I know what it is of course, patriarchy. She sees herself as totally valueless too, she's spent her life propping up a total cocklodger who has zero respect for her, simply because the world has told her that good girls do that and the only important thing is to be a good girl. It doesn't matter to her that her own daughter was suffering so much, all that mattered is that I kept it to myself, that I wouldn't shame her. My suffering, and the suffering of all women, just does not matter. We are not people.

Fuck that.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Oh, gosh.

What a horrible view.

I think, sadly, you are completely right about why this happens. But it doesn't make it ok.