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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

'Asking for it'

58 replies

catdoctor · 27/05/2014 20:14

Hi
Can you help me with my DM?
Since marrying my DSF she's developed - or maybe rediscovered sensibilities I find disturbing.
I won't bore you with the claptrap on gay marriage, the most recent conversation was regarding women 'asking for it' ie rape, through their dress/ behaviour.
I was ashamed that I couldn't counter with anything other than - ' no one in their right minds asks to be subject to any violent act'. Please explain to me in words of one syllable why, evidently, no woman asks for it
She was a JP for several years, I could weep.

OP posts:

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 19:43

I'm with you catdoctor. You are completely correct. My post was in response to Mont's 3rd point not to your DM. I suspect that response would be a bit blunt for her .

With regards your question about feminist theory Kat Banyard The Equality Illusion is a good start. I also enjoyed Backlash by Susan Faludi (if enjoyed is the right word!). Both of those are encompass a wide range of topics. A lot of feminist books focus on narrower topics such as porn, beauty standards, gender stereotypes etc. Greer's The Whole Woman is supposed to be good too although I haven't read it.

AskBasil · 29/05/2014 21:29

"people thinking like my DM seem to believe there is provocation in rape "

That is because people like your DM believe all men are rapists.

It is impossible to provoke a man who isn't a rapist, to rape you. A man will only be provoked to rape, if he believes that he has the right to rape.

And people like your DM give rapists permission to rape. They offer them succour and support.

Spell it out to her. She is on the side of rapists. Make her own it.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 21:47

There is indeed provocation in rape. That's precisely the problem.

The sheer presence or vulnerability of a woman should not constitute a provocation, and that it does to too many men (and women) is something that must be tackled directly and explicitly.

AskBasil · 29/05/2014 22:10

There is no provocation in rape unless the person being provoked is a rapist.

It is impossible to provoke someone to rape you if he is not a rapist.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 22:20

If I understand you correctly, you are referring to criminal predisposition?

While there is certainly predisposition, it's clearly not the case that all rapes occur within an identical set of circumstances. A given person can't be considered a rapist unless they have actually committed a rape already, and conditions that might cause the one to rape do not necessarily do so for another.

We must also take into account the large subset of rapes in which the rapist - for our purposes, the male - does not even realize the import of his actions precisely because he does not think to take the female's wishes into consideration and simply assume both consent and compliance as a given. How do you think it comes about that so many rapes are committed by individuals known to the victim?

AskBasil · 29/05/2014 22:27

They come about because many men believe they are entitled to put their cocks into women whether women want them to or not and therefore they become rapists.

It's really not complicated.

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 22:36

I'm finding it really distasteful and nasty Mont that you are theorising about women's lived experiences as though it were some kind of intellectual exercise or contest.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 22:37

I voiced the same assessment in the post above.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 22:41

scallop:

I'm afraid I don't follow.

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 23:02

No I'm sure you don't follow.

Rape happens to real women thousands of times a week in the UK alone. Not one of those women provoked their attacker. None. Their attacker felt entitled to cross those women's boundaries. Nothing in the woman's behaviour prompted that because the issue is with the man's attitude. That was there before the woman came along. It has fuck all to do with criminal predisposition or whatever bollocks you were spouting in your second paragraph of 22:20.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 23:10

Ok, now I'm certain you didn't even bother to read my posts.

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 23:21

I read them, unfortunately, several times.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 23:37

I find it difficult to believe then, that you would express such vehement disapproval towards a perspective that is substantially identical to your own.

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:10

You were the one that said: "With rape, if there is any provocation involved then it is surely usually of a comparatively-passive sort." I'm saying no. There is no provocation from the side of the woman.

However what is really annoying me is the detached nature with which you are discussing this as if rape happens to some other people. Rape happens to us, women. We live it. We live with the consequences of rape culture too.

"We must also take into account..." Really? Must we? It's as if you are doing a research paper and laying out he parameters.
"Summing up:..." like a some kind of report.

Just a couple of examples. It's horrible. Can you stop please.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:17

"There is no provocation from the side of the woman."

Reread this:

There is indeed provocation in rape. That's precisely the problem.

The sheer presence or vulnerability of a woman should not constitute a provocation, and that it does to too many men (and women) is something that must be tackled directly and explicitly.

In other words, men's attitudes are bad - "the issue is with the man's attitude". YSWIS?

"However what is really annoying me is the detached nature"
"Just a couple of examples. It's horrible. Can you stop please."

That is exactly how sober discussion and analysis must be carried out. I refuse to subject readers to sentimentality and platitude.

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:27

No it isn't the way discussion and analysis must to be carried out.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:38

I've asked you to stop. Please respect that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 00:45

Forgive me barging in, but I just wanted to say, mont, you may not realize how you are coming across, but the way you post is really rude.

You have one opinion on how you want to carry out discussion and analysis. It is not how these things 'must' be carried out. It is exceptionally foolish to assume you have the right or the capacity to put limits on other people's preferred modes of discussion or analysis.

scallops is one of the most well-informed feminists I know. You could learn a great deal from her.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:53

"you may not realize how you are coming across, the way you post is really rude. "

If I 'let slip' some overt insults or mockery into my posts, it is because my respect is at first a given, but once it is lost I will respond accordingly.

"It is exceptionally foolish to assume you have the right or the capacity to put limits on other people's preferred modes of discussion or analysis."

Then let's call it mutual?

"It's horrible. Can you stop please."

"scallops is one of the most well-informed feminists I know."

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 00:56

I don't think anyone will want your respect if you cannot post in a civilized and mature manner, though, will they? Without insults or mockery.

I'm sorry if you feel intimidated by people more educated than you. I do realize that can be difficult. But when you ask a lot of questions, you might expect you will get people responding who want to teach you. It's not something you need to feel sad about. We're used to it. We are, I suspect, a fair bit older than you.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:00

There is quite a bit of presumption and prejudice in that post. I will not bother to correct it.

The good thing about forums of this size is that by statistics alone I should eventually encounter someone who doesn't respond in a deplorable manner from the very outset.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:02

Well, just recognizing your presumption and prejudice is a start, so well done.

I'm sure you'll meet some nice friends somewhere soon.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:09

Trust me, "NO U" is neither becoming nor clever.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:10

What does NO U mean? Is it text speak?

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