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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Oxford Union president rape allegations - alumni open letter

385 replies

FairPhyllis · 21/05/2014 13:31

The president of the Oxford Union (which is a debating society at Oxford), Ben Sullivan, is currently being investigated over allegations of rape and attempted rape of two undergraduates at the university. He is refusing to resign or suspend his presidency. Speakers are beginning to pull out of events.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10845979/Oxford-Union-boycott-after-president-returns-despite-police-investigation-into-rape-allegations.html

If you are a member of the university or an Oxford alumna/us, and feel strongly about the minimisation of rape and sexual assault "on campus" there is an open letter you can sign here calling for Sullivan to step aside while under investigation. It is organised by the OUSU VP (Women) and other students.

OP posts:
kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:05

Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 11
innocent until proven guilty. It is already in. Thought it had to be. It is the fundamental basis of law. Police investigating makes no difference.

It is a shame that feminists dont do that.
Bet they would if they were investigated for something.

AgaPanthers · 21/05/2014 22:06

It is not a fucking human right to be President of the Oxford Union at all times.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:08

So you dont suspect him, but think he should withdraw anyway.
If you want to do that in your life, that is up to you. But dont expect all that many others to do it. Well you can, but dont be surprised when they dont.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:09

Oh, crikey.

kins, did you not even bother to read the first few posts? Why?! What is the point of commenting if you're only going to take issue with things that have been explicitly rejected already?

Though I am pissing myself at the idea of it being a human right to be president of Oxford Union.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:15

It is a Human Right to be treated as innocent until proven guilty, not the Oxford union!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:19

We know that.

What did you think to the thread itself?

WhentheRed · 21/05/2014 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AgaPanthers · 21/05/2014 22:28

It's 100% normal to suspend people from their jobs in cases of criminal allegations. They can later either be sacked or reinstated.

This jumped-up twit is not more important than the institution.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:30

I think that you should talk about it, of course you should if you want to. Shant be signing the open letter though.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:30

I'm asking you to read the thread.

It's obvious you haven't, or you'd have had the basic courtesy to acknowledge that what you said had been answered several times.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:31

It's 100% normal to suspend people from their jobs in cases of criminal allegations
I am surprised people dont take whoever it is to the Human Rights about it. It seems like they would win. And so they should.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:32

No-one is suggesting any Oxford students or alumni who don't want to sign the letter should sign it, are they?

And surely this debate is wider than that. You have been to Oxford, but lots of people are just commenting on the general situation, which has really strong impact outside Oxford, because it is one more way capable woman may be put off applying to good universities for fear they'll be sidelined or discriminated against.

mercibucket · 21/05/2014 22:36

i dont know if i would be suspended when
a) arrested
or b) charged
with a serious offence

surely charged, not arrested?

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:42

Dont understand you again. I have been to Oxford? Confused I have never set foot in the place.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:44

Ok.

I'm really struggling here.

Would you please read the thread, or at least the OP.

That might explain things.

It is clear from your posts you've not read them. So why the heck are you commenting? It comes across as if you just want to try to score points.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:47

With respect, there are not very many commenting on here except for the regulars.
A handful of non regulars. 10?
There are obviously more commenting elsewhere on the internet and elsewhere.

BOFster · 21/05/2014 22:48

Is that your criteria for reading a thread? Goodness.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:52

Why is that a bad thing? Confused

This is a subsection.

It was set up so that people could talk about feminism if they were interested, without people in Chat or AIBU who weren't interested having to trawl through. The point is self-selection.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:53

Though, now I know that non-regulars are interested, I quite fancy taking it to chat.

AskBasil · 21/05/2014 22:54

"If he is charged and subsequently convicted, I hope women and men will take away the message that if they make an allegation, it can be investigated, prosecuted, the perpetrator can be convicted and can go to prison. That to me strikes the best blow against rape culture."

Yeah it would be nice if that was what happened when rape allegations happen.

85-90% non reporting rates. 6% conviction rate for reported rapes. 2-4% false allegation rate.

Rape culture doesn't need to worry too much just yet, does it.

CaptChaos · 21/05/2014 22:54

Hunton1

In this case, there are 2 women. They must both be lying then. Women are always lying bitches, innit?

There's a local case in particular that has formed my opinion on this sort of thing. In one case a teacher was questioned on suspicion of possessing child porn.

There's no such thing as child porn, it is more accurately termed child abuse images. Pro-porn lobbyists insist that porn is undertaken by consenting adults.....

^6 months later - having not been able to leave his house for fear of getting mobbed - the CPS got around to actually charging him and taking the case to court. Whereupon he was found innocent, because they hadn't done due diligence on the intelligence they had received, and it transpired his card details had been skimmed and used fraudulently, which explained why they could find no evidence of him actually ever accessing or possessing this porn on any computer he had access to, nor anything untoward in the extensive search of his house.
There was no evidence in fact, except the FBI saying his card details had popped up on a server they'd seized. And realistically, how much of an idiot do you have to be to use your own card details to buy something illegal?^

People do it all the time, it's how they get caught.

That list should have been assumed to be full of fraudulent transactions from the off.

Why? Why would the police in 2 countries have had to assume this? Surely they should look into the obvious culprits first, rather than waste time looking for ghosts?

The Police are shockingly bad at "cyber crime", and how it took the CPS 6 months to bring a case to court when they only had one piece of evidence I will never know.

I would assume that your friend's case wasn't the only one handed over by the FBI. 6 Months to wade through mountains of evidence, hours of sickening pictures and videos seems pretty reasonable to me.

They ruined his life based on a piece of evidence that an expert witness took apart in 5 minutes.

The CPS and the police didn't ruin his life. The fraudster who used his card details ruined his life, the newspapers which hounded him ruined his life. The Police and the CPS followed guidelines designed to stop people who take, post and pay for images of child sexual abuse.

The case was thrown out in under 5 hours FFS. But I digress.

^Nevertheless, in that period, the shameful behaviour of the local gossip rags had made his position utterly untenable and he had to move away. That is UTTERLY unacceptable in my mind, to be forced out of a job simply because of a (false) accusation, whether it be rape, child porn, child molesting (not that I conflate possession of porn as being even remotely as serious as actual abuse, but the media generally lumps it all together).
That sort of thing sticks with you.
"So why did you leave your last post?"
"Aaaaah, would you believe me if I said I fancied a new challenge?"^

You are aware that images of child abuse are taken by people molesting and harming children, aren't you? Your friend wasn't forced out of his job because of a false accusation of anything, he was accused, charged and then tried for possessing images of child abuse, which is a charge incompatible with his profession. He was no doubt asked to step down, or suspended, in accordance with his LA's policy for this sort of thing. The fact that a couple of newspapers decided that he was guilty is neither the Police, CPS nor his employer's fault. The great thing about him having gone to trial is that he was exonerated, with actual proof, so all he does is tell the truth, and he will be able to back that up.

Now that's a toughie, because clearly it's inappropriate for him to be teaching in the interim - pending trial - but equally, the rags shouldn't be able to smear his name through the mud just because he's on a precautionary leave of absence. He has a right to his family life, his privacy, and his reputation, which should be left intact until such a time as a guilty verdict is reached. No one has the right to go taking photos through his windows of him and his kids having breakfast, which is exactly what one of the grubby local papers did.

He does have a right to family life, and privacy, he doesn't have a right to teach in those circumstances. As I've said, and I don't think anyone would disagree, the newspaper who are the culprits here shouldn't have done what they did.

You can see why I automatically feel some sympathy for the accused. Because they are the accused, and NOTHING ELSE until they are tried and found guilty.

I can see that you have some sympathy for your friend, yes.

It's not "rape culture" to treat someone as innocent until they are proven guilty. That is in fact the entire premise of our whole legal system. If there's an idea that they pose a threat to the public, remand without bail remains an option.

It is rape culture, I'm afraid. It has little to do with innocent until proven guilty.

I think he did get some compo from one of the nasty little rags which had crossed the line well into both harassment and libel territory, but that hardly makes up for a shattered reputation and having to move house. Unsurprisingly he was pretty pissed with both the CPS and the media and didn't pull any punches when it came to attacking their handling of the whole sorry affair.

If he continued to be pissed off at the CPS, he was directing his ire to the wrong people.

^My view is anything to do with child porn, child abuse or rape should carry an automatic media ban, making it contempt of court to report that someone is being investigated until such a time as a guilty verdict is reached. This topic for instance, would constitute contempt.
Unless the judge is convinced there may be other victims and a media appeal is the best way to encourage others to come forward, then no one should know you've been investigated or even charged.^

Then your opinion is wrong, as has been shown by Yewtree.

Nigel Evans has expressed this sentiment recently after he was found entirely innocent after months of press speculation, and hopefully something may come of it.
In fact he's even written an article in the Spectator about exactly this, given he was in Mr Sullivan's position not so long ago.

Supposedly you are innocent until proven guilty, but on the internet, with social media (exactly like this, people posting around notices on forums when no charge has even been brought), these sorts of accusations have a habit of sticking, even if nothing comes of them. "He was never charged, but there was this incident ten years back, no smoke without fire, I'd steer clear if I were you". Which is actually libellous, but it kind of follows people around after such events.

This bit has already been addressed. Your friend was charged, and found to be innocent of those charges. Would you rather he hadn't been? That, despite him being in a role which would give him unsupervised contact with children, and charged with having downloaded child abuse images, he should have been allowed to stay in that role? That the CPS should have just dismissed it all out of hand, because 'everyone knows that people use stolen credit card details on these things'?

If you are in a position of authority, and are charged with/arrested for crimes of a violent or sexual nature, you should step down from that role until such time as the CPS decide not to prosecute or you are found 'not guilty'. This has fuck all to do with your human rights, and everything to do with understanding the dynamics of power and your place in them.

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 22:56

This is a subsection

Had no idea.

Will butt out.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:59

Ah, that explains a lot. You're clicking in from active threads?

It's not like that's a bad thing, it's just people usually read the thread or at least the OP first ... otherwise it gets too confusing.

Bifauxnen · 21/05/2014 23:19

don't butt out, just read the thread and butt in again when you're up to speed. Don't worry, I've done what you've done before and was promptly told to RTFT, live and learn. Smile