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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Oxford Union president rape allegations - alumni open letter

385 replies

FairPhyllis · 21/05/2014 13:31

The president of the Oxford Union (which is a debating society at Oxford), Ben Sullivan, is currently being investigated over allegations of rape and attempted rape of two undergraduates at the university. He is refusing to resign or suspend his presidency. Speakers are beginning to pull out of events.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10845979/Oxford-Union-boycott-after-president-returns-despite-police-investigation-into-rape-allegations.html

If you are a member of the university or an Oxford alumna/us, and feel strongly about the minimisation of rape and sexual assault "on campus" there is an open letter you can sign here calling for Sullivan to step aside while under investigation. It is organised by the OUSU VP (Women) and other students.

OP posts:
LoveSardines · 21/05/2014 20:16

What generally happens is that people step down for the duration of the investigation / prosecution, then at whatever point no further action is taken / they are found not guilty, they go back, and if found guilty, obviously they don't.

It happens quite a lot, in a variety of roles, both paid and non-paid.

What this man is doing is the exception rather than the norm, for people in positions of authority accused of a serious crime.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 20:16

Eh? Why would I never work?

You step down while the accusation is going on, and if goes to it, charges and trials.

I cannot imagine standing in front of 30 people and knowing chances are I'm looking at several people who've been raped, and knowing they're being reminded of rape every time they look at me.

I do not think that the president should feel any differently. Do you think men are incapable of understanding emotions? Because I don't. I think he could have realised all of this.

WhentheRed · 21/05/2014 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 20:18

YY, fully agree, whenthe.

It would be honourable to step aside. It would have been good for the Union's reputation and I think good for his too.

jojofoam · 21/05/2014 20:23

I personally dont agree with that philosophy.

What happens of random accusations are just thrown about.

Is someone expected to stand down then?

tbh, I would have thought he could get human rights on to this.
His human right is to work/carry on. He hasnt been charged.

jojofoam · 21/05/2014 20:26

Of course he could be guilty, but I cant possibly know one way or the other.
And if he is, I wouldnt begin to know what a man doing that sort of behaviour is likely to do. Brazen it out at a guess.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 21/05/2014 20:29

This isn't a random accusation.
It is a police investigation.
Do you understand the difference?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 20:29

It has nothing to do with whether he's guilty or not, jojo.

It's right for him to stand down.

You're asking what I'd do. I'd know I wasn't guilty. And I'd stand down, because I have basic respect for other people. It is really appalling if a young man who is supposed to be intelligent and thoughtful, with a record for engaging with difficult debates, cannot see that.

LoveSardines · 21/05/2014 20:38

Not at all comfortable with someone on the thread propagating the rape myth that women and girls "randomly" accuse men of rape, ie that they casually and regularly accuse men of rape for no apparent reason and on a whim.

Inappropriate on the FWR section and against MN "we believe you" rape myth busting campaign.

jojofoam · 21/05/2014 20:38

True Tunip, but if I was innocent, I and it seems others too, just dont see why he should quit.

because I have basic respect for other people
What about respect for yourself and your family?
That is what it comes down to for me. Students shouldnt be looking at you as if you are guilty. I dont think that they have that right.
Be suspicious, fair enough. Be a little wary, fair enough. But not more.

WhentheRed · 21/05/2014 20:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SheherazadeSchadenfreude · 21/05/2014 20:41

I worked with two people, several years ago, who were both accused (separately) of serious crimes. Both were immediately suspended on full pay by the employer. One was found guilty and got a custodial sentence, whereupon he "resigned" before he could be sacked. The other was completely cleared, and reinstated into his old job. This should be how it works, no?

jojofoam · 21/05/2014 20:41

It could be said why dont you believe me about what I said about LRD?

Admittedly I didnt realise this thread is on the feminism board, but I dont see why this board shoudl get special status in that respect.

tbh, if I had seen that this thread was on FWR board, I probably wouldnt have gone anywhere near it.

LoveSardines · 21/05/2014 20:41

It is common practice for people accused of serious crimes to step out of their roles while investigations are ongoing.

This is not a new thing that people are asking. They are asking him to do what people in his position usually do.

jojofoam · 21/05/2014 20:43

Now it has been pointed out that this is FWR, I quit.

LoveSardines · 21/05/2014 20:45

Jesus christ.

Of course feminists are going to object to people spouting rape myths. That's not a failing of the FWR board Hmm

WhentheRed · 21/05/2014 20:46

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed · 21/05/2014 20:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 20:55

Eh? Confused

WhentheRed · 21/05/2014 21:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 21:38

Not you!

I meant the bizarre claim that it's somehow un-feminist for people not to jump in with I Believe You for someone's rather distasteful rhetorical rape accusation.

hunton1 · 21/05/2014 21:49

"This isn't a random accusation.
It is a police investigation.
Do you understand the difference?"

If he hasn't been charged yet, then it may be exactly the former. Someone walks into a Police station, makes a complaint, the target of the complaint is questioned. That puts him "under investigation", potentially on the sole say-so of a single individual, who even gets to remain anonymous into the deal. There may be NO other evidence against him, it may even (unlikely but it DOES happen) be a malicious and fabricated complaint. Until the evidence is taken to court and cross-examined, it actually could be malicious. You don't know, we don't know, no one knows except the complainant and the defendant.

There's a local case in particular that has formed my opinion on this sort of thing. In one case a teacher was questioned on suspicion of possessing child porn. 6 months later - having not been able to leave his house for fear of getting mobbed - the CPS got around to actually charging him and taking the case to court. Whereupon he was found innocent, because they hadn't done due diligence on the intelligence they had received, and it transpired his card details had been skimmed and used fraudulently, which explained why they could find no evidence of him actually ever accessing or possessing this porn on any computer he had access to, nor anything untoward in the extensive search of his house.
There was no evidence in fact, except the FBI saying his card details had popped up on a server they'd seized. And realistically, how much of an idiot do you have to be to use your own card details to buy something illegal? That list should have been assumed to be full of fraudulent transactions from the off. The Police are shockingly bad at "cyber crime", and how it took the CPS 6 months to bring a case to court when they only had one piece of evidence I will never know. They ruined his life based on a piece of evidence that an expert witness took apart in 5 minutes. The case was thrown out in under 5 hours FFS. But I digress.

Nevertheless, in that period, the shameful behaviour of the local gossip rags had made his position utterly untenable and he had to move away. That is UTTERLY unacceptable in my mind, to be forced out of a job simply because of a (false) accusation, whether it be rape, child porn, child molesting (not that I conflate possession of porn as being even remotely as serious as actual abuse, but the media generally lumps it all together).
That sort of thing sticks with you.
"So why did you leave your last post?"
"Aaaaah, would you believe me if I said I fancied a new challenge?"

Now that's a toughie, because clearly it's inappropriate for him to be teaching in the interim - pending trial - but equally, the rags shouldn't be able to smear his name through the mud just because he's on a precautionary leave of absence. He has a right to his family life, his privacy, and his reputation, which should be left intact until such a time as a guilty verdict is reached. No one has the right to go taking photos through his windows of him and his kids having breakfast, which is exactly what one of the grubby local papers did.
And this guy should have the exact same rights. We shouldn't be having this discussion at all.

You can see why I automatically feel some sympathy for the accused. Because they are the accused, and NOTHING ELSE until they are tried and found guilty.

It's not "rape culture" to treat someone as innocent until they are proven guilty. That is in fact the entire premise of our whole legal system. If there's an idea that they pose a threat to the public, remand without bail remains an option.

I think he did get some compo from one of the nasty little rags which had crossed the line well into both harassment and libel territory, but that hardly makes up for a shattered reputation and having to move house. Unsurprisingly he was pretty pissed with both the CPS and the media and didn't pull any punches when it came to attacking their handling of the whole sorry affair.

My view is anything to do with child porn, child abuse or rape should carry an automatic media ban, making it contempt of court to report that someone is being investigated until such a time as a guilty verdict is reached. This topic for instance, would constitute contempt.
Unless the judge is convinced there may be other victims and a media appeal is the best way to encourage others to come forward, then no one should know you've been investigated or even charged.
Nigel Evans has expressed this sentiment recently after he was found entirely innocent after months of press speculation, and hopefully something may come of it.
In fact he's even written an article in the Spectator about exactly this, given he was in Mr Sullivan's position not so long ago.

Supposedly you are innocent until proven guilty, but on the internet, with social media (exactly like this, people posting around notices on forums when no charge has even been brought), these sorts of accusations have a habit of sticking, even if nothing comes of them. "He was never charged, but there was this incident ten years back, no smoke without fire, I'd steer clear if I were you". Which is actually libellous, but it kind of follows people around after such events.

TitusFlavius · 21/05/2014 21:58

I'd say that with social media, someone found innocent of serious crime has a better chance of mud not sticking, not less - not least because there's a bazillion platforms where people can discuss it at length, and not just two inches on page 7 of the local rag's court report.

It also had to be said that there's plenty of cases where mud should stick and it doesn't.

LoveSardines · 21/05/2014 21:59

blah blah rape myths blah blah

women fucking liarz poor menz blah

can't even be bothered.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/05/2014 22:04

Every time someone posts 'innocent until proven guilty' or 'they should be innocent until proven guilty but no-one believes it,' they reinforce the idea that everyone suspects all people accused of rape before they have proof.

Do you ever think how hard that must make it for people who are falsely accused? I know they are the minority, but still, it seems remarkably misguided coming from people who ostensibly want to support people who might be falsely accused. It's almost as if people are really more interested in stopping anyone from bringing rape accusations, than in the actual individuals involved ...