Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

LRD has not been defensive but exhaustively answered every one of your points Kim, which is mightily generous in the context that those points change in the face of steady rebuttal e.g. it's not about men's feelings! rapidly became but if they feel bad they won't listen to you Over and over again you've used "men" or."people" to designate the class of people rather than specifying that you mean some of them in pursuit of.your argument that feminists may not do this.

You have made some spurious and provocative comparisons which do not actually function comparatively and refused to acknowledge posters when they ask for.clarity about this.

So it looks a lot like you have the problem in listening to others, really. And saying that other fems do things differently to insinuate that LRD is passing judgement on a load of unseen feminists is diversionary; we all know that LED is arguing against your specific position here and pointing out to you the way that it's actually massively patronising to come and tell people off about their syntax when the real problem is the structural inequality of men and women. Not a single person on here would be so stupid to tell you that the oppression you feel as a transgender person is because you aren't framing your arguments correctly.

I agree Annie. Just not so sure about the mostly in the first line.

you can say vile racist shit because...you've earned it? because other people have said things to you?

i don't want an apology from you, thanks, i would like you to stop posting racism shit and excusing it as rhetoric, making a point, or (ugh) hey, those people did mean things too!

do you think you could manage that?

Kim, what you are effectively saying is that it is okay for you to make racist remarks to Muslims if they are transphobic (by your or any other standard of transphobia).

Surely you can see that is wrong?

Um, Kim, are you telling us it's okay to sprew racist hate speech because some other people spew other kinds of hate speech elsewhere? Really?

actually i think the logic is kim can say racist stuff because other people have said transphobic stuff

is th about right, kim?

Buffy. Thanks for simplifying what I didnt understand upthread
[there are many more further upthread that I dont understand too, but no matter!]
And yes, you may be right in what you wrote.

The "not as a person" thing Kim:

You stated that we should use the qualifier "some" unless we.actually mean "all"

You then made a statement about "people" feeling alienated when we use the "men" to designate class

Given that she quite clearly is someone who uses the word men in this way and that she is not alienated by that, your assertion designates LRD and quite a few of us who are not alienated but EMPOWERED by this language as non people.

And your language was hateful, Kim, even if as you say, other people have spoken hatefully as well in other contexts

Kim, if you don't consider your remarks to be racist, that is an entirely different issue to you claiming that racist remarks are justifiable because people have made transphobic ones.

Right, but you are mistaking press events from actual acts of.terrorism, Kim. Another poster described the numerous and varied acts of terrorism committed by non Muslims, which outweigh the terror attacks committed by Muslims. Which makes your comparison untrue, not to say actually shoring up.rather than challenging structural oppression. It is not correct, fActually to say, "Muslims carry out most terrorism".

which group is most likely to do it? well, globally, most terror has been and is caused by white people who do not identify as muslims. the same is true, even in the uk.

clearly, you believe your own racist bollox. fair enough.

could you refrain from posting it anymore? when you post your racism,other people experience it as a violence. please.

i will be interested to see if all this asking nicely as we are meant to do, apparently, gets me anywhere

I would like to know more about the trasnsphobic stuff that's been posted on here- I am very ignorant about this.

kim if you associate terrorism with Muslims because of what you read in the racist press, that does not make your statements less racist. Nor does the fact you are offended by radical feminist gender analysis.

Just to note, outsself your post above about the moment men collude with oppression was spot on.

Do you really not understand or are you just playing some set of game?

And I'm wondering why you don't want to talk about transphobia.....

That isn't what has been said at all. Trying to point out why at this point would just be going around in circles.

You posted about a stereotype that there is some kind of greater link between Muslims and terrorism than other people. There isn't. However you word that, however sensitive your phrasing, the link between the two will always be untrue. And the popularity of that untruth is racist (I am not suggesting your intent was racist)

That is not the topic of this thread. To go through what the topic of this thread is would be to repeat the entire thing.

"I could easily talk about all the lies and scare stories some radical feminists come out with about transpeople. But then I would get accused of all sort of things by people."

Oh, we're in playground territory now, are we? "I know lots of secrets but I'm not telling you. You just have to believe me"

Nothing I could say about men as a class could lead to or collude in their structural oppression. Every single comparison you offered Kim, was from the perspective of the oppressor, except the rad fem versus transgender thing. However, even in that case, rad fems, (who are not a social class in the way the others are either, but a self selecting political movement) have no structural mechanism by which they might deny equality to transgender people. So, if what you are seeing is it being okay to speak about men as a social class but not other, oppressed minorities, you are disingenuously ascribing equality between men as a social.class and all the others in order to allow individual men to feel unthreatened, unoffended and consequently unconcerned by feminism. It's what about the menz mk II.