Can we talk about female violence? I need to get my response straight

[GrassIsSinging]

I know this is celeb rubbish, but am finding my blood boiling over comments from FB friends and the like over the Solange Knowles -punching-Jay Z debacle.

Lots of seemingly conscious, smart, reasonable people condemning violence of any sort (great, agreed), but then saying things like 'the double standards in society sicken me...Chris brown beats Rihanna and he is a monster...Solange attacks Jay Z and people dont respond in the same way'. Others (people I thought were decent) saying 'You couldnt have blamed him for hitting back...people have a right to defend themselves' etc.

This riles me massively. Am I a freak for thinking that male violence against women IS often (not always, but very often) much more devastating than vice versa? Because men are usually physically stronger...because male violence against women is a huge problem in this world...? And that a decent man will not hit a woman, even if provoked. Is this an 'old fashioned ' view now?

Feminism doesnt mean we now have to accept men punching us, ffs!

Depressed...

[risagburst]

Views on domestic violence from a feminist perspective:

1. Women can hit men anytime they want and for any reason they want. The man should act chivalrous and not retaliate or react in any way. If a woman hits a man, all other woman shall cheer "you go girl!".
   

1. If a man lays a finger on a woman, he shall be thrown into prison (and be beaten up by every other man as punishment).
   

This is why we don't need feminism.

[OutsSelf]

Ooo this is very interesting. My knees jerk reaction is that the gender issue is nearly always in service of patriarchy. So when we're asking ourselves whether or not it would be worse for a man to be hit by a woman, or whether it's inherently worse for a woman to be hit by a man, we're actually working with implicit assumptions about gender, power and agency: you only pose the question in the case that you assume there are inherent qualities of female and male that make violence more tolerable, likely, damaging or whatever.

FWIW I'm female and a trained fighter. I trained in martial arts and am very senior in my form, I got to black belt as one of two women but the other dropped out and so all my subsequent peer training (10 yrs, more or less) has been with men. I'm relatively small even for a female. I'm stating this as context for my assertion that if you are made of bones and organise your boney appendages (arms and legs) with speed and precision, the relative difference in muscular strength matters more psychologically than it does physically. Took me years to work that out (and I developed a fine line in punch avoidance in that time, ha ha) but it is the case. JayZ has not just physical weight but psychological advantage in that fight. He did not believe himself to be at threat and neither did Solange, if we are being honest. That psychological advantage is socially constructed and very difficult to recognise and act against but basically if you don't think you can win a fight, you never commit to an actual attack, and exhaust yourself over defending things you easily could take. It takes a huge effort to work against that conditioning, which I see as the basic operation of patriarchy subscribing powerlessness on female.bodies, not just symbolically but as experience. Bones are incredibly hard through certain planes (a straightening leg) and incredibly fragile through others (floating rib, temple, jaw, nose) whoever you are. If you straighten your leg through his floating rib, he is massively at risk even if he doesn't believe himself to be. These basic physiological facts are almost entirely obscured by discourses of gender in relation to power. Every discussion I have seen of this incident is clouded by the warped thinking about strength, power, vulnerability etc.

So I'd say that minimising is not a feminist strategy but a patriarchal one because it underscores the ways in which men are constructed as powerful and women are constructed as powerless. This video does nothing except shore up the mythology of agency, power and vulnerability that fuels our sexist culture and facilitates DV, at the same time giving MRA s ammunition against feminism; as if this drunken, uncoordinated lunge means that feminism has concluded its struggles and men can legitimately be described as victims because one man (nearly) got hurt. This man is one of the 6% of all victims of violence who was subject to female violence. I do not think this in any way warrants the end of all struggle against male violence, or the critique of a masculinity which requires violence or it's potential to realise itself as masculine.

Solange should be sent to anger management classes and prosecuted under the proper section of law.

[OutsSelf]

Ugh, grammar and predictive mistakes, you can spot em for yourself.

[ezinma]

That's a terrific post, OutsSelf.

[risagburst]

It's fine for women to hit men but not fine for men to hit women.

That certainly isn't patriarchy. That's feminist.

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

rolling pin? (what is this an episode of I Love Lucy?) I'd thought you love a rolling pin in a woman's hand, making you some cookies to go with your sandwich.

BTW, you're absolutely right. Guns do even the playing field. And yet women (half the population) are only responsible for 14% of homicides involving guns in America.

Hmm.

walter its not a problem.

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

risagburst Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you come on feminist sites to troll, to annoy feminists because you think harassing women is funny, or are you really as stupid as the things you are posting? Genuine question, do you believe the shit you post? Because being a wind up artist is one thing...being so incredibly stupid however..

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

Also why do you think men are unlikely to hit a woman back? DV being as high is it is...do you think it's not actually very likely?

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

While more than half of murders of men occur outside the home, 73% of murders of women occur in the home.

To anyone interested.. The stats above are all from the states where guns are common so you can see how gun violence really works.

Men are more likely to be murdered (by other men) women are more likley to be home murdered by someone one close to them (male). It's interesting to me as an American as the gun lobbyist try and claim guns stop DV, when in fact armed survivors of DV usually end up being killed by their guns (either murdered or commit suicide). Even when all things are equal, men commit most of the violence.

[Ledkr]

I struggle with the comparison between male and female violence.

As a survivor of some of the most violent attacks from my partner and then ex partner after I'd left, I cannot imagine that me attacking him, although wrong would be comparable.

He fractured my skull, burst my ear drum and knocked me unconscious frequently. My face on several occasions was a purple balloon all with his be at fists or feet, no weapons.

I struggle to imagine me being able to inflict the same level of injury on a man.

Both are wrong, very wrong, but men are physically much stronger due to testosterone and muscle mass.

I'm probably wrong but it's something I often struggle with.

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

ledkr :(

[Ledkr]

Thanks manatee I'm absolutely fine now! it was many years ago but I often struggle with this comparison. I think it's a huge issue but the tow are different.
Two women a. Week are killed by men, the two are not comparable.

[RamsaySnowsSausage]

Oh risag you are funny

[OutsSelf]

Ledkr that sounds horrifying. Glad you are well now.

It is hard to imagine women being able to causally inflict so much damage on their partners. What I would say bout that is that female embodiment, and styles of comportment are more significant to this than muscle mass. (I'm not sure how testosterone directly could impact the force of a strike). So if we imagine "Throwing Like a Girl" (Iris Marion Young) vs. typical male experience in our culture, the average adult female is significantly less experienced in moving her body through explosive, outwardly directed movement, which male embodiment experiences much more routinely and consistently. This means that women reach adulthood quite basically inept at these kinds of gross motor movements (that also constitute violent acts) than the average male.

I take the point that men have more muscle mass. What I would say is that it's the bone that does the damage, not the muscle. Most women could quite easily fracture a skull, most women could break a nose, fracture a rib, crack a jaw. I take the point that most men could do this more easily, I take the point that the average male punch has more weight than the average (even skilfully applied) female punch. What I'm saying is that the force threshold for damage, including against males, is lower than we tend to assume, and that the thing that matters more even than muscle mass is the direction and connection of the impact. Any adult moving from sitting to stand in in a chair applies more force to that movement than is required to break a nose, jaw, or rib.

Most women are not sufficiently experienced at gross motor movements to be able casually to inflict mass damage against the average man, who is even advantaged by the fact that he's likely been knocked and fallen more often, and is less likely to regard a blow as fundamentally threatening, even when it hurts (think of how many more "careful!"s we direct at little girls). But this is socially constructed experience and not innate to gender. Yes he can inflict more damage than you. But you can nevertheless inflict enough harm to cause him massive, potentially fatal or crippling, damage. Granted, you may need teaching in order to develop the right movement set, and he might not. But he's been training his whole life. For that reason, comparing the average man with the average woman in this context is not an objective comparison.

No part of what I am saying means women should just hit back, or that a DV victim could just clock him one and it would be over. It's much more complicated than that. But that complication is the operation of patriarchy on female bodies and not an innate fact of femaleness.

[Waltermittythesequel]

Which helps me articulate more fully what I said before. At an individual level, male-on-female or female-on-male violence are equally deplorable.

At a societal level, male-on-female violence is the larger (as in there's more of it and it has wide-ranging consequences beyond those for the individual subjected to it) than female-on-male. Does that make sense?^

Yy I agree completely and actually, thinking over my responses last night, I was reacting emotionally, thinking of specifics that I know about rather than in general terms.

Unfortunately both my brother and I suffered DV in relationships. I remember the support I got and the ridicule he got (from family members).

I remember how it was relatively easy for me to get out/get help compared to him.

That's why I'm so defensive of male victims, I guess.

Violence against women is statistically a much bigger problem but, in my own experience, there is a lot more help available and a lot less stigma attached.

Which, thinking on, is a huge feminist issue. Women can be helped but men need to put up and shut up? Why? Because women are weaker and therefore couldn't possibly inflict damage (which is why I don't like that particular argument) or because it is, in a way, more socially acceptable for a man to be violent because he's a man!

[risagburst]

"I struggle to imagine me being able to inflict the same level of injury on a man.

Both are wrong, very wrong, but men are physically much stronger due to testosterone and muscle mass."

Imagine yourself with a baseball bat then.

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

I am risa.

[risagburst]

"or because it is, in a way, more socially acceptable for a man to be violent because he's a man!"

Same logic as the "boys will be boys" people say to excuse bullying from boys.

Another reason we don't need feminism.

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

risa why are you not worried about male violence? DO you realize you are much more likely to be killed by another man than by a woman? You might want to make that your priority.

[Waltermittythesequel]

risag you're talking utter shite.

Did you miss the part where I said it is a feminist issue?

OYF.

[risagburst]

"think of how many more "careful!"s we direct at little girls"

I no longer say "careful" to my nephew and only use say it to my nieces. Happy?

[Dervel]

OutSelf I have suspected pretty much all of what you said re: the physiological differences vs psychological differences. I used to do fencing, mainly épée and saber and my experience is women had no real barrier to excelling (I'm a chap myself), technique and form are key.

In my recent interest in feminism I became aware of an obvious personal knowledge gap on women in history (another passion of mine), so in my research into things that interest me I came across this fascinating lady: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d'Aubigny a famous French opera singer/ swordswoman. Which I think illustrates what we are talking about.

Funny you should bring up chimps Buffy, as I was discussing primate behaviour with a zoologist friend of mine and differing gender roles in their behaviour, and what she explained to me is that among the primates they exist on a spectrum of relative size, and strength disparities with say gorillas on one end of the spectrum where the percentage difference is much larger, and you see less female choice in mate selection, males having wide ranging territories, aggressively maintaining dominance and say orang-utans at the other where the percentage difference between males/females is much smaller. Females have choice of mate they tend to pair off for long periods and there isn't the same sorts of aggressive behaviour to one other. The funny thing is as we are a primates ourselves the size disparity between our average male/female is at the orang-utan end of the spectrum, so the obvious conclusion is that the currents state of affairs is more influenced by our psychology/society than our biology.

Quick point on the testosterone, if someone injected me with the relative percentages of testosterone that a male adult gorilla had, I'd keel over dead, so I whilst I wouldn't dare suggest that our biochemistry didn't impact on our behaviour I don't think we can use that as an excuse not to analyse our social constructs and make corrections there.

[risagburst]

"DO you realize you are much more likely to be killed by another man than by a woman? "

Does that fact give women the right to hit men whenever they feel like it?

Even OutsSelf pointed out women are able to cause injury despite usually being weaker than men.