Can we talk about female violence? I need to get my response straight

[GrassIsSinging]

I know this is celeb rubbish, but am finding my blood boiling over comments from FB friends and the like over the Solange Knowles -punching-Jay Z debacle.

Lots of seemingly conscious, smart, reasonable people condemning violence of any sort (great, agreed), but then saying things like 'the double standards in society sicken me...Chris brown beats Rihanna and he is a monster...Solange attacks Jay Z and people dont respond in the same way'. Others (people I thought were decent) saying 'You couldnt have blamed him for hitting back...people have a right to defend themselves' etc.

This riles me massively. Am I a freak for thinking that male violence against women IS often (not always, but very often) much more devastating than vice versa? Because men are usually physically stronger...because male violence against women is a huge problem in this world...? And that a decent man will not hit a woman, even if provoked. Is this an 'old fashioned ' view now?

Feminism doesnt mean we now have to accept men punching us, ffs!

Depressed...

[FloraFox]

Solange Knowles bullying Jay Z? Puh-leeze. Don't be ridiculous.

[scallopsrgreat]

Again, a straw argument. No-one has said they should take an attack.

I have sons. I am teaching them not to be violent. Otherwise as ezinma says the "question then becomes when it's legitimate for men to deploy that violence, rather than why it ever should be."

[WilsonFrickett]

Walter my 8 yo with SN has grasped that hitting back isn't the right course of action in 'taking an attack'

[Waltermittythesequel]

Walter my 8 yo with SN has grasped that hitting back isn't the right course of action in 'taking an attack'

Ok. What's the relevance?

[vettles]

On these sort of threads the victim-blamers and minimisers always seem to turn up... "oh he could have swatted her away", "it's like a child hitting an adult"...

Why do some women feel the need to downplay women's strength and power to such a huge extent. Being punched in the face by The Average Woman might not hurt as much as by The Average Man, but it would still bloody hurt.

Victims should be able to defend themselves, including through a "good" (good = broadly proportionate) offense if needs be.

[AskBasil]

Vettles, can you point to a post which says that victims ought not to be able to defend themselves against an attack?

WalterMittytheSequel, can you point to a post which says that any victim anywhere should simply have to "take" violence from someone else (with or without a vagina)?

I love the way people who want to downplay the gendered nature of most violence, passionately argue against points no-one has made and I'd bet no-one believes.

[AskBasil]

Actually, I'd better not make assumptions had I?

Let's do a poll, shall we?

All those who believe that people with vaginas ought to be allowed to dole out violence willy nilly say aye?

All those who believe that people with penises should never be allowed to defend themselves say aye?

Let's count the ayes.

[MyMannateeBringsTheBoystotheYa]

Hmm I have just been reading an MRA FB page...give me an hour to calm down then I'll answer your question buffy

[Waltermittythesequel]

As you'll see, I actually said:

I haven't seen any "equal rights/equal fights" stuff, thank goodness

My point was that by talking about her lack of size/strength actually takes away from how serious her crime was.

And since most of the posters on here are very knowledgable, I know that I don't need to point out that DV situations, even between family members, often do more psychological than physical damage.

I'm not talking about JayZ and Solange now.

But I do find it quite sad that people would think it's not as bad for a man to be hit since a woman is not as strong. To me, it IS as bad. That's all I'm saying so please don't try to make out that I'm doing otherwise.

DV is a subject close to my heart for many negative reasons and frankly, I don't take kindly to being ridiculed or patronised or wilfully misunderstood when I'm discussing it.

[AskBasil]

Where has anyone said it's not as bad WalterMitty?

If you don't want to be patronised, stop arguing against things people haven't said.

Nowhere has anyone said it's not as bad for women to perpetrate violence against men. To acknowledge the gendered nature of violence and to be honest about the inequality of physical (and social) power when men and women are violent towards each other, is not the same as saying that women who are violent are not behaving as badly as men who are violent. In this particular instance, Solange's behaviour was disgraceful - there's something quite horrifying about the sheer untrammelled violence of that attack. But if JayZ had done exactly the same thing to her with the same level of force, let's not pretend that she would have sustained the same relatively unscathed results as him.

[AskBasil]

Also I think there's a distinction to be made between

"it's not as bad for a man to be hit by a woman" and

"it's not as bad for a woman to hit a man"

There's a very different nuance there, one is about the actual result and one is about the choice a person makes to use violence.

[vettles]

AskBasil Like I mentioned in my post, I believe that you take away a victim's ability to defend themselves when you tie one hand behind their back by requiring that they not fight back. The posts which say or imply a victim should not be able to do that are:

whatdoesittake48 Tue 13-May-14 22:29:23
"Men who are attacked by a woman are more physically able to hold their attacker at bay without needing to hit back."

squizita Wed 14-May-14 15:40:51
"People should be able to defend themselves reasonably without attacking ... He should never hit her back but if anyone is physically attacked they should feel free to push the person away if they can (clearly, he could) but not lay into them."

WilsonFrickett Wed 14-May-14 17:16:03
"my 8 yo with SN has grasped that hitting back isn't the right course of action in 'taking an attack'"

[vettles]

I've also seen posts (not on this site) that say Jay Z should have been the man and taken the hit

[Waltermittythesequel]

Am I a freak for thinking that male violence against women IS often (not always, but very often) much more devastating than vice versa?

it's okay to see male on female violence as worse in a given context

Jay Z is bigger than her. She was never going to win if it were a genuine fight. She wasn't bullying someone smaller than her

Those are the types of posts I'm arguing Basil but don't let that get in your way...

[Waltermittythesequel]

And actually, your first post on this thread has pretty much set the tone for your attitude toward other posters who don't exactly agree with you.

I'm neither stupid nor an advocate for domestic violence and I think it very strange that you would assume anyone who has a different viewpoint on this is.

[AskBasil]

You've ignored my post of 20.48 Waltermitty.

I guess that's because you're not interested in exploring nuance.

None of the posts you've quoted, lead me to the conclusion you're drawing.

So I guess we're reading them differently.

Which is where nuance comes in.

[AskBasil]

And again, read my post properly

It's not about my attitude to people who disagree with me.

It's about my attitude to people who pretend that male and female violence happen in exactly the same context with exactly the same power differentials and exactly the same consequences... that pesky nuance again

[Waltermittythesequel]

It's about my attitude to people who pretend that male and female violence happen in exactly the same context with exactly the same power differentials and exactly the same consequences...

Who here has done that?

I haven't ignored any posts.

I agree you have a valid point actually but the agressive manner of your posts smack of someone wanting to shout others down, so I find myself less interested in engaging with you.

When someone makes throwaway coments about DV apologists and people being stupid I tend not to take them as seriously

[Waltermittythesequel]

But since we're speaking of nuances;

You cannot assume that a woman will be always physically smaller or weaker than a man.

If you have, say, a 6ft woman who lifts weights pounding on a 5ft 6" man who is underweight she will do infinitely more damage than the other way around.

Right, those are pretty exaggerated examples but the point remains. I think it does no good to assume a woman will do less damage. You're not even making allowances for weapons etc.

If S had used that stiletto for example, she could have done some serious damage with an element of surprise.

[AskBasil]

Well of course, you don't have to engage with me, it's entirely your choice. I'm happy to modify slightly what what I said, I do think that people whose only response to the sheer level of male violence against women is "well women are violent too" are either stupid or disingenuous but mostly to be fair to them (and which I hadn't considered this morning), simply unaware of how big the problem is, which isn't their fault really as our society has a vested interest in minimising it.

2 women a week are murdered by their male partners or their exes. 2 a week. 2 men a week are not being murdered by their female partners or exes. That's the context in which men hitting women and women hitting men is happening.

That's why I've got very little time for the "well women are violent too" approach. Yes women are violent too, and? What are we going to do about male violence against women? I'm sorry if you've found my posts aggressive, I can't help that right now

[AskBasil]

And oh FFS sorry, you'll probably find the FFS aggressive, but I think I acknowledge that. The exceptions are not the issue are they? It's not men who are nursing bruises and ending up in A&E on a few occasions before they report an intimate partner attack. Men are more likely to report on the first attack and they sustain serious and/ or life-changing injuries less often. Of course there are exceptions, of course weapons equalise physical power, but let's look at the figures. Let's look at the reality of the extent of the problem. And what Buffy said. Much less aggressively than me, as befits her name.

[Waltermittythesequel]

Basil I genuinely came across as ruder than I meant to when I said that.

I agree with you 100% and have spoken out in RL and on here (before I had to re-reg!) about my complete intolerance of DV against women. I have been involved in charities that support women leaving DV relationships.

I suffered DV.

The problem is that with this particular case, we are discussing a woman being violent towards a man.

Look, there are always going to be people saying "well women are violent too" just as there will always be people saying "well she shouldn't have walked out alone/she shouldn't have worn that dress/she shouldn't have gotten that drunk". I don't think we should just accept that. I don't think we should ever stop fighting against attitudes like these.

BUT...I do worry that there is an air of minimising what she has done. It's funny instead of dangerous. He's a "pussy" for taking it from her etc. etc.

My point in that the argument that she couldn't have done as much damage as he could have in that situation does nothing but take away from the very serious assault and her criminal actions. And I really don't think that by pointing that out, I'm in anyway arguing that women do it too so shit happens!

And I'm talking about general attitudes/RL conversations/FB posts, not just stuff on this thread.

[Waltermittythesequel]

Typos. Typos, everywhere!