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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Game Of Thrones. Do I Give Up Now? WTF

55 replies

HotSauceCommittee · 04/05/2014 11:37

Two episodes in. Shock

Does it get better? The role the women have seems to be totally commodified. Sexual or breeding purposes only. Prostitution is the norm. Does it get "better"? Do the women claim more power as it goes on?
I think, at the moment, the entertainment value is totally occluded for me by the feelings of disquiet and nausea.

OP posts:
BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/05/2014 11:44

Last time I heard about GoT (I don't watch it) fans were upset because a consensual sex scene from the book had been turned into an upsetting rape scene in the tv-series. So it sounds like it just gets worse.

tabvase · 04/05/2014 11:45

Well, it is based on a medieval-type fantasy society.

There is an awesome female character who does grow to get a lot more power and assertiveness over the next few episodes. And a much younger one who does over the next few seasons. And others, in a more subtle way (though they have to use their feminine charms more to get what they want).

Stick at it, it's not entirely a feminist's picnic...but I don't watch it for the gender roles.

ImAThrillseekerBunny · 04/05/2014 11:50

The "sexposition" where boring talky bits were spiced up by having a nude woman in the frame was at its worst in season 1, but is still present in later seasons, so it is for you to decide whether the awesome female characters struggling realistically against a medieval patriarchy is worth the deeply dubious behaviour of the TV producers.

Shoopshoop2 · 04/05/2014 11:51

Definitely stick with it. There is one female who is a breathtaking beacon of feminist light,and yes,a younger one who looks very promising Smile

HotSauceCommittee · 04/05/2014 11:53

There's nothing I do watch for the gender roles, but this is so obtrusive for me. I was hoping I could see a way past it.
At the moment, it's just there, unavoidable, in your face brutal, male supremacy.

OP posts:
EyelinerQueen · 04/05/2014 12:07

First of all you should read the books rather than watching the show. With hour long episodes it is simply impossible for the show to portray the true depth and scale of the stories and the characters.

Game of Thrones is set in a medieval world where prostitution, rape and the abuse of women were rife. Much like it was for centuries in our real world.

Against that backdrop you have a world full of female characters who are completely three dimensional and just as interesting and important as the male characters. All with their own agendas and flaws.

Feminist characters in GoT.

Cersei Lannister
Danaerys Targaryen
Catelyn Stark
Arya Stark
Brienne of Tarth
Olenna Tyrell
Margaery Tyrell
Asha Greyjoy
Ygritte
Osha

The TV show can't do these characters justice. The scene with Cersei and Jaime was an epic misfire and totally different to the book.

Anotheronebitthedust · 04/05/2014 12:09

I really struggle with this. I loved the books, and was really excited when the TV series started. However, in the books the misogyny against female characters makes sense within the context of a medieval
"Europe", and there are some excellent female characters (as many female protagonists as men, which is really really rare in fantasy), who are "strong" and interesting in a varied selection of ways, not just 'female warrior' types.

However, the show seems to take these elements and overlay it with really unpleasant choices, that are completely unnecessary. For example:

*the sexploitation (as mentioned above - explanation of the plot delivered to naked women to keep viewers interested)

  • sexualised violence (against male and female characters, to be fair, but still very unpleasant and graphic)
  • huge amount of unnecessary female nudity, and very little male nudity (there is even a song about this)
  • anachronistic nudity (one of the actors complained that it was unrealistic that her character (a medieval "wild woman") should have all her pubic hair shaved off, and asked if she could grow it out, the producers said no.
  • as above, an incredible amount of rape scenes, some of which were explicitly not rape in the book
  • and, depressingly, denying/minimising this when it was raised after the episode by bloggers, show writers, the author...

Basically it is up to you to evaluate whether you can still enjoy the show despite these elements. I find that most media can be problematic to some extent (whether sexist, racist, whatever), and if I stopped watching/reading everything that wasn't perfectly PC there would be very little left! So now I acknowledge the unpleasant elements, but still enjoy the other aspects of a show (of which, with GOT, there are many).

PosyFossilsShoes · 04/05/2014 12:12

I've read the books and now watching the TV series.

The way I think it's meant to be is that it is an in-your-face brutal male supremacy, but it is held out for the reader's disapproval not for their titillation. None of the characters are likeable - they all have serious flaws and there is no Disnified good guys / bad guys divide. Prostitution is rife but at least in the books this is not "empowering" for the women, it is at best a survival mechanism and at worst fatal.

I think the first part of the TV series unfortunately tried to make the violence, the sex and the supremacy "sexy / racy" rather than following the books' model of making it horrifying. That seems to have improved a bit in the later episodes.

It's the same problem I had with 12 Years A Slave - in the book the brutality is the backdrop to the society in which it is set. In the film, it's gratuitous and rather too - lovingly? - done, to the point I only saw the trailers and couldn't watch the film. Lovingly isn't quite the right word but I hope you know what I mean.

TheBogQueen · 04/05/2014 12:12

It's soft porn

It's utter shite

But the main reason I stopped watching is that it's boring

Watch Orange is the New Black - it's fab and funny

TheBogQueen · 04/05/2014 12:37

It was when I saw the giggling prostitutes - about 5 mins into the first episode - that I realised it was just the same old shite. Yawn.

AltogetherAndrews · 04/05/2014 13:06

I had the same feeling when reading the books, a couple of chapters in, and I was thinking misoginistic shite. However, I stuck with it, and realised that Martin is deliberately setting up a hugely misoginistic society, but placing strong female characters within it, many of whom are fighting against these expectations. None of these characters are without flaws, but you have Cercei, hungry for power denied to her by her gender, and seeking to grab it by what ever means possible. Arya, born into the society with certain expectations on her, which she has never fitted into, and finds her circumstances allow her to break away from those expectations. Brienne, who doesn't meet the expectations of femininity either, so takes on the role of a man, but has to fight all the way to be taken seriously. I could go on, with daenarys, Caitlin, ygritte, sansa, margary etc. actually the female characters are often the strongest, best written characters on whom the plot often revolves.

How well the TV series manages to show this is not always clear, however I think that what they are doing is trying to show the violently sexist society of the books, whilst trying to make it more palatable to watch, hence giggling naked prostitutes rather than some of the more gruesome sexual violence and language from the books. It's noticeable that they have also adjusted the ages of the younger characters too, to make it more watchable, as some of the characters such as Daenarys are sexually active at very young ages, as they would have been in a medieval society, but showing this would be outrageous in modern times.

TheBogQueen · 04/05/2014 13:43

Yes but it's amazing how this supposedly dreadful society sells, isn't it. People like it.

Yet it's so hackneyed and I think rather dishonest - you can show all the nudity, this misogynistic society but it's ok because there are some 'strong' female figures fighting against it.

So you can enjoy it all and any niggling doubts that what you are watching might simply be a TV exec's wet dream, is laid to rest by the appearance of the woman dressing as a man. How radical!

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/05/2014 15:34

What a paradox, so in order to watch this and appreciate the strong female characters you must also be able to stomach misogyny from the producers/writers themselves.
Anotherone Wow, that list. The people behind the TV series must be really porn-influenced Sad
Altogether
as some of the characters such as Daenarys are sexually active at very young ages, as they would have been in a medieval society
I really don't think sexual activity between teenagers was encouraged in Medieval society. Are you refering to how adult men would marry and rape teenage girls?

ImAThrillseekerBunny · 04/05/2014 15:40

Yes, we're talking about the selling of pubescent girls into marriage for political ends (sometimes with older men, sometimes with teenaged or younger boys), which constitutes rape to all intents and purposes. Danaerys is sold in marriage aged 13 I think in the book. I think Cersei and Jaime are sexually active from a very young age as well but that's a consensual sibling relationship (at first).

kalidasa · 04/05/2014 15:49

Oh god it's totally ghastly, not to mention badly written and (with a couple of exceptions) incredibly woodenly acted. I find it v. depressing that it is such a hit. Actually I started a thread on this ages OK, let me see if I can find it.

kalidasa · 04/05/2014 15:54

OK = ago

Here's the thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1739172-To-think-that-Game-of-Thrones-the-TV-version-is-over-rated-tosh

I totally agree with BogQueen and others. I find all the women defending it for the "strong" characters (strongly assaulted every five minutes for our titillation, that is) v. depressing, and the complete incomprehension of the whole 'male gaze' issue.

I haven't read the books so perhaps they are better in at least some respect (better written or more ambitious or something).

AltogetherAndrews · 04/05/2014 16:11

I wasn't suggesting it was radical. I was pointing out that in the books, the misoginistic society is not set up to be titillating.

The TV show, in realising that they can't broadcast the society as written, is trying to put that across in other ways, and I'm not sure how successfully, as it does become soft porn like, which is not the point in the books at all.

What I find v.depressing, is, as per usual, on this topic, disagreement is seen as ignorance and incomprehension. Happy to discuss a topic, not so thrilled to be patronised for doing so.

ImAThrillseekerBunny · 04/05/2014 16:16

I don't think anyone's defending the sexposition and the use of women's bodies as set dressing in the TV series. Or if they are they shouldn't be. From a feminist perspective it's indefensible to be trading off the exploitation of actual women in return for the interesting portrayal of fictional ones. The books have a lot to offer beyond "strong women" cliches though.

TheBogQueen · 04/05/2014 16:37

Ach it's just TV

But there it is - the cliche. It's about as feminist as Pretty Woman.

It remind me of that Kenny Everett sketch, Cupid Stunt,

"And then all my clothes fall off.. and it's all done in the best possible taste..."

I'm a grumpy old woman though

sashh · 04/05/2014 16:39

OP

Have you just started watching this series?

If so there is an awful lot of back story you are missing.

The role the women have seems to be totally commodified. Sexual or breeding purposes only. Prostitution is the norm. Does it get "better"? Do the women claim more power as it goes on?

I suppose it depends on how much power, Cersei did not want to be married to Robert Barathean, but she took the opportunity to get her own son (and technically nephew) on the throne.

Daenerys is married off at age 13 and within a couple of years she has taken over her dead husband's Khalasar, freed thousands of slaves and commands an army, not bad for a teenager (oh and she has 3 dragons).

Anotheronebitthedust · 06/05/2014 14:36

interesting article on this topic:

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/10735304/Game-of-Thrones-nowhere-else-on-TV-do-you-get-women-this-good.html

Yes, I agree OITNB is good, but it's not a fantasy series. For those of us who like that genre, GOT is one of, if not, the most significant production of the last decade. I personally would rather watch something where women are sometimes treated badly (but also thrive and succeed in a myriad of different ways) than something where women barely exist at all (Tolkien).

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/05/2014 18:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 06/05/2014 19:15

personally would rather watch something where women are sometimes treated badly (but also thrive and succeed in a myriad of different ways) than something where women barely exist at all (Tolkien).
I'm the opposite, I'd rather watch things like the Hobbit with one billion male characters only, than having to watch rape scenes Sad

a shame that those seem to be the primary choices though
Agree!! it's crap.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 06/05/2014 19:16

Oops - not links, quotes.

Anotheronebitthedust · 06/05/2014 20:37

Agree. It is crap.

What is vaguely encouraging is the amount of debate stirred up on blogs, review sites, newspaper articles etc addressing the issues (the sexploitation and recent rape scene in particular) - although the comments below the line are hugely hit and miss.

Incidentally I read recently that the reason the two showrunners for GOT have declined to comment on the recent controversy was because they make a point of never reading any reviews or internet comments. How
arrogant convenient.