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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Has anyone read On Beauty by Zadie Smith? And does anyone want to talk about it?

13 replies

allhailqueenmab · 07/04/2014 15:48

that is all

will be back later with some ramblings

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JimmyCorkhill · 07/04/2014 23:10

I've read it. Had to find it on the bookcase to remind myself what it was about. I can't remember it at all. Which is great because I can re-read it - hurrah! So may rejoin this thread once I have remembered Smile

NotGoodNotBad · 07/04/2014 23:23

Yes. No. Hated it. Pretentious twaddle!

TeiTetua · 08/04/2014 09:32

I read On Beauty and White Teeth in the wrong order. In a way I had enough curiosity about what's so good about Zadie Smith after reading On Beauty that I went ahead and got White Teeth, and that was quite a read, dashing around multiracial London and making fun of everyone, and I could see how it made her reputation. But On Beauty was mostly a bore; if you want an academic comedy, David Lodge does it ten times better.

JayEmm · 08/04/2014 12:00

I liked On Beauty much more the second time I read it - but it was years ago and it's faded a bit!

I prefer Zadie Smith's essays to her fiction overall but enjoyed the latest novel.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/04/2014 12:19

I liked it when it came out.

It's odd, it feels like a more 'immature' book that White Teeth to me.

Why, are you writing an essay on it?

allhailqueenmab · 08/04/2014 12:57

No, not writing an essay, just reading it.

Oh dear - suddenly feel compelled to say: no spoilers please!

I am interested in it from a feminist perspective - in that there is hardly anything about men's bodies, and so much about women's - and yet I am guessing (have not finished it yet, though nearly, and when I have I will have only read it once) a tiny fraction of it is about women's bodies from their own perspective. We get some interiority of Kiki's experience of her body. a lot of looking at it, and looking at Zora's body, and looking at Victoria's body, and looking at Claire's body. A little of Jerome's body and Carl's body, to look at (not to be in). When we are "in" the men's bodies it is largely as they are sexually experiencing (through sight or other senses) the women's bodies.

This is uncomfortable for me, especially in an academic setting, because it reinforces a status quo in whcih men stride about naturally and comfortably in their unremarked bodies, and there is always some sort of hoo-ha, angst, frisson, discomfort, something, about women's. It reminds me of being at college where I worried about my own body, in particular a. its sexual safety and b. the size of my arse, about 679% more than my actual studies. Here are all these men thinking about rap and protests and politics and their rivals' lectures, and women's bodies, and all these women dressing up, worrying about their weight, struggling to walk in heels, and so on.

It has a finely tuned feminist perspective in some areas and yet it is totally unchallenging of the literary tradition of the male gaze.

Even Zoras's lust for Carl is somehow about his beautiful face as much as, or more than, his presumably delicious arse.

I am white and perhaps (probably) racially clueless but it does seem to me to contain more racial sophistication than the pitiful minimal standards of literary fiction (by recognising race at all it coudln't fail to do that I suppose) (I am not criticising its racial sensibilities, I am saying I am not qualified to judge them)

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/04/2014 12:59

It's really impossible to respond to that without giving spoilers! Grin

allhailqueenmab · 08/04/2014 13:15

OK - thanks LRD! Ok if I come back tomorrow for this then? I have hardly any left to read.

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/04/2014 13:19

Please come back, I really want to chat about it, I just don't want to spoil it for you.

allhailqueenmab · 08/04/2014 13:34

Oh yes, definitely. Might read it this lunchtime and be back later! thanks!

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allhailqueenmab · 08/04/2014 13:36

Oh another thing I wanted to say (again not in full possession of the facts): the fact that Carlene left the picture to Kiki and her family decided to ignore that, is not just about money, imo, but about society's privileging of all relationships, especially patriarchal family relationships, above friendships with women

  • this sort of detail is the kind of thng that makes me think it has more sophisticated feminist sensibilities
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allhailqueenmab · 08/04/2014 13:56

OK! I read it! I read it all! (except the acknowledgments)

SPOILER ALERTS lifted!

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allhailqueenmab · 08/04/2014 15:26

Looking up the art to see the images that are mentioned, I came across this

tarthead.com/2012/06/07/getting-em-out-for-the-lads-lee-horyon/

Very aposite!

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