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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do I respond to this?

44 replies

TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs · 01/04/2014 22:07

I am a medical student. Below is a post, posted on the online wiki by a male member of a discussion group after the topic was raised about women being surgeons:

"??I just want to say... (for the record!) I think a woman makes just as good a surgeon as a man (if not better)...I just think women have more difficult decisions to make regarding a career in surgery, and external pressures; if choosing to have a family.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690619/ Here is a paper looking retrospectivley at postgraduates who went into hospital medicine/general practice and what proportion had children/worked part time etc.

I am perhaps more traditional in my view (hopefully not coming across as sexist) that I believe the first few years of a childs life (and the mother-child bond) are fundamental to shaping that childs future. A very famous french obstetrician Michel Odent (who I mentioned yesterday) has written an enourmous amount of stuff about this bond- I would recommend the "scientification of love" if anyone is interested. Otherwise here is a ted talk about my favourite subject again (sorry everyone!!!)

(you can skip to 12 mins in if you havent got the energy!)"

How do I respond to this intelligently, in an "evidence-based" way, without saying what I really want to and getting kicked off the course?

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TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 02/04/2014 00:29

Good post and very unapologetic phrasing - yay!

TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs · 02/04/2014 00:30

Essentially terror, it has nothing to do with the job, but the culture. In medical specialties you could have just as much " on-call" or shift work. To become a surgeon, and to progress, the process demands that you show "commitment to the specialty" by conducting research, other extra-curricular activities, staying late and so on. This is to essentially sort the wheat from the chaff and prove your worth. It is just ingrained into the culture of what is essentially an old boys club. It is argued therefore that women cannot keep up with these demands and raise a family. It has nothing to do with our competence in performing procedures. It is all such a load of bollocks.

And medical students are an in imaginative lot. We are essentially trained to lick arses and go with the status quo right from day one, to challenge it is detrimental to our careers and we are a competitive bunch.

It depresses me sometimes.

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TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs · 02/04/2014 00:32

Thanks snatch!

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BoomBoomsCousin · 02/04/2014 07:31

I think you are wrong to get caught up in the trap of arguing about whether or not working mothers are better for children or not better for children.

The point is that his opinion on that, whether evidence based or not, is irrelevent to the work place. It is a personal decision for an individual whether their working practices suit their family life. No one is criciticizing men who become surgeons, they haven't even spent the time gathering information on whether such a work life is better or worse for children.

This is why his view doesn't just come across as sexist but is sexist and hugely harmful to the practice of surgery since it is part of what stops the best people becoming surgeons and gives an easier ride to some less well qualified ndividuals.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 02/04/2014 07:49

"No one is criciticizing men who become surgeons, they haven't even spent the time gathering information on whether such a work life is better or worse for children. "

This.

Beachcomber · 02/04/2014 09:49

His view isn't 'traditional' - it is sexist.

It is born from uncritically absorbing the hegemony of a system of social organisation/status quo which benefits men as a class to the detriment of women as a class. This is very basic politics and it is surprising that someone of his education level (presumably if he is going to be a surgeon) is unable to apply clear critical thinking to the political model in which he lives.

No doubt he prefers not to apply analytic thinking to the status quo and the 'traditional' i.e. sexist view that women should sacrifice their careers, financial independence and intellectual capabilities in order to have children because it suits him and means he can have children without having to sacrifice any of those things.

It suits him because he can delegate early parenting of his own offspring to a female partner so that he can award himself the 'traditional' i.e. sexist win-win of having both a career and a family, but remain unhindered by actual day to day responsibility of the welfare of his children. It also suits him because this view takes away a whole group of people that he would otherwise find himself in competition with professionally. Quite a cushy number.

If women are barefoot and pregnant they leave men free to pursue careers unhindered by taking on proper responsibility for their children. This also creates an 'old boys club' and network which allows men to positively discriminate for themselves.

Men like this are always asking for something 'evidence based' to prove their sexist and outdated views are wrong. They do this because they know that it is unlikely comprehensive evidence exists (and even if it does they will dismiss it due to some perceived bias, etc). It is a slippery trick as his own argument is purely opinion and prejudice - it itself is not evidence based, yet he demands that you waste your time searching for 'evidence' against his personal opinion (an opinion that he holds in such high manly regard that he considers it facts that he should mansplain to the laydeez).

He sounds like a pompous entitled dick. I wouldn't waste too much time on his pontificating if I were you.

Beachcomber · 02/04/2014 10:09

And the reason that women have to make difficult work/family balance decisions, is not down to some cuddly, touchy, feely, place it on a pedestal, but it is actually a gilded cage, wimmenz/baybeez bond.

It is because men as a group 'traditionally' neglect their children.

FairPhyllis · 02/04/2014 10:28

What Beach says about 'evidence'. Asking you to provide suitable 'evidence' is setting you up to fail. 'Evidence' here means 'evidence by the standards of an academic profession that was set up and is largely run by men in accordance with their priorities and worldview.' Of course it's not going to provide you with something he'll be satisfied with.

The person who demands that you provide them with suitable 'evidence' is saying that the personal lived experiences of women don't count.

I'm actually shocked that women medical students have to sit around and listen to crap like this as part of their 'training'.

Beachcomber · 02/04/2014 10:52

The person who demands that you provide them with suitable 'evidence' is saying that the personal lived experiences of women don't count.

Yup.

grimbletart · 02/04/2014 11:42

What Beachcomber said.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/04/2014 13:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CailinDana · 02/04/2014 15:13

My reply would be:

you raise really good points. Society expects women to stay at home with children (and as you say there is evidence that this is best for the children) and yet the system doesn't accommodate that. Rather, the expectation is that intelligent highly trained women will give up their careers. If, as you say, women make good surgeons, isn't it sensible to ensure to ensure that the way surgeons are trained and work is compatible with the necessity for them to take time out to have children?

TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs · 02/04/2014 17:53

It gets worse. Actually the TED talk video in the OP is relevant. Watch it from 12 minutes onwards. It talks about studies on RATS and how early interaction affects their young. Apparently this should influence our parenting AS HUMAN BEINGS.

Well might be relevant for him.

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TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs · 02/04/2014 18:04

My final response:

"Below is a link that suggests children suffer no ill effects from having a mother who works, and in fact may benefit:

www.esrc.ac.uk/news-and-events/press-releases/16143/working-mothers-and-the-effects-on-children.aspx?

Haven't read the book obviously, but have had a good google, and from what I can gather Michel Odent looks mainly at the birth experience (which unfortunately women cannot always control) and very early interaction and bonding i.e within the first few months, so this wouldn't be relevant to your argument at all for a mother who takes reasonable maternity leave. Therefore not sure if his work is an argument for women to sacrifice what could be a life-long career. I am also a bit suspicious of a man who has never given birth telling women what their birth should be like, and that taking painkillers or having a caesarean can damage their bond with their babies, only confounding the guilt and sadness many women feel if their birth experience doesn't go to plan for any reason, more often than not beyond their control. It also seems that he has received a lot of criticism. According to Dr Amy Teuter, "“Pseudoscience appeals to false authority, to emotion, sentiment, or distrust of established fact... Marsden Wagner is a pediatrician and Michel Odent is a general surgeon, yet they are touted as experts on birth even though obstetricians disagree with them.?" Link here

I suspect that his writings come from quite low down on the "hierarchy of evidence"(that we were discussing earlier), and probably constitute personal opinion, or at the most observation, which of course can be influenced by a lot of cofounding factors and can be subject to bias, so as evidence, it could be argued to be quite weak and only suggesting an association rather than causality. Not sure if it is robust enough to exclude half the population from having the career of their choice.

Attachment theory, which is a bit more widely accepted?, says that children need at least one (not necessarily ^just^ one) consistent primary care-giver for the first two years for normal development. Going out to work does not make a mother an inconsistent care-giver, especially of she shares the childcare with another consistent care-giver, such as a father or trusted childminder. A big disruption such as a death or true seperation/estrangement may have an effect, such as evacuation during WWII. I have also spoken to numerous people, including child psychiatrists (on CAMHS placement), who have told me that attachment disorders only occur in children who suffer quite significant sutained abuse or neglect, not sure if this really applies to children of working mothers, who probably still have very strong bonds with their mothers, and also with other caregivers such as their fathers or grandparents? ?

Let's not forget that the fact is, it is actually against the law to discriminate against anyone on the basis of their gender or family circumstances when employing someone, just as it is illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, sexuality or disability; so whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, one has to be careful where they chose to express it, or allow it to influence their behaviour, in a professional setting.

As for the TED talk, it is interesting, but again it doesn't address the argument that actually working mothers still manage to bond very successfully with their babies in their early months/weeks, and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to form my opinions on how human beings should interact with one another from studies performed on rats!"

He loves studies on rats and mice btw.

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TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 02/04/2014 18:14

Good post!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 02/04/2014 18:16

By the way, do rats have good career prospects in general?

Grin

Rats are even further down the line than the usual evo psych monkey sex bullshit.

TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs · 02/04/2014 18:31

Don't rats sometimes eat their own offspring if the mood takes them? Where's dd, I feel a bit peckish. Well I've done my best with her up til now, I licked her a lot and shit like that.

I am actually wondering if he is deliberately trying to wind me up, how can he actually seriously believe he has a point? Smile

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FloraFox · 02/04/2014 22:47

I would respond by saying something like:

"I think the fact that you describe your views as "traditional" indicates that they are based in socialisation and culture rather than science, which is not surprising as much of the science is contradictory or questionable in its methodology. However even if what you say is true about the mother / child bond, how is this relevant to whether women should be surgeons? Since you agree that women make just as good surgeons as men, if the profession is structured in a manner that excludes 50% of the most brilliant surgeons, then perhaps it is time to change the structure of the profession."

NiceTabard · 06/04/2014 17:00

Not got much knowledge here, but why surgeons?

What about non surgical hospital consultants - anaesthetists, physicians (is that what they are called?) and things like that?

Surgery has always been considered a particularly male domain so is that why he has picked it out as opposed to other roles???

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