How do I respond to this?

[TossedSaladsAndScrambledEggs]

I am a medical student. Below is a post, posted on the online wiki by a male member of a discussion group after the topic was raised about women being surgeons:

"??I just want to say... (for the record!) I think a woman makes just as good a surgeon as a man (if not better)...I just think women have more difficult decisions to make regarding a career in surgery, and external pressures; if choosing to have a family.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690619/ Here is a paper looking retrospectivley at postgraduates who went into hospital medicine/general practice and what proportion had children/worked part time etc.

I am perhaps more traditional in my view (hopefully not coming across as sexist) that I believe the first few years of a childs life (and the mother-child bond) are fundamental to shaping that childs future. A very famous french obstetrician Michel Odent (who I mentioned yesterday) has written an enourmous amount of stuff about this bond- I would recommend the "scientification of love" if anyone is interested. Otherwise here is a ted talk about my favourite subject again (sorry everyone!!!)

(you can skip to 12 mins in if you havent got the energy!)"

How do I respond to this intelligently, in an "evidence-based" way, without saying what I really want to and getting kicked off the course?

Oh ignore the video about epigenetics, thought it would be more sexist shite!

Did you read the article he linked to? I haven't, just wondered what it said.

IMO, the only way to respond to this is with facts, not emotion.
As far as I know, there is no evidence suggesting that the mother-child bond suffers if the mother is working, as long as good quality childcare is in place. And there is no mention of the father-child bond, which, by his argument, woukd presumably be jeapordised if the father was a surgeon.
Not sure why women as surgeons is even being discussed, like there's anybissue, but it's your course.

Ask him if the words ""??I just want to say... (for the record!) I think a black person makes just as good a surgeon as a white person (if not better)..." Or "??I just want to say... (for the record!) I think a gay man makes just as good a surgeon as a straight man (if not better)..."

Would ever come out if his keyboard?

(hopefully not coming across as sexist)

because I'd hate you all to see my true colours.

The issue was being discussed because we were discussing sexism we had experienced in the hospital. Someone had heard someone saying women shouldn't be surgeons. He clearly agreed. The group is about reflection - it is not part of the curriculum to discuss career options for women - thank god! FWIW I am a parent myself.

I had written a couple of points you bring up, but I deleted it again as I have had a glass of wine and am angry! Below is what I nearly wrote:

"I would argue that women have more difficult decisions regarding career choices because of the prejudice they encounter in having everyone assume they want children. Not all women do. I am not a great example to counter this argument (as I have had one), but actually so far my having a child has affected my "career" very little. I have seen other medics take more time off for lie-ins than I have for family stuff.

But then your next point tries to illustrate that if a woman doesn't let her career suffer, she is damaging her children?

I hear what you're saying, but there is absolutely no reason why a child and mother cannot have a mother-child bond if the woman choses, or indeed has to work (as many women do). I spoke with many people about the idea of attachment (including child psychiatrists), and was reassured by all of them that attachment disorders only occur in situations where quite extreme abuse/neglect occurs. Many argue that it is "natural" for a mother and child to have a very close bond, and this is of course true very early on because of breast-feeding etc, but I have read somehwere (will see if I can find evidence later - ranking jobs at the moment so have no time), that in fact in populations of hunter-gatherers, a child will have multiple care-givers as in fact a human child is very demanding so without extra help a woman would effectively starve if she did not have extra help to go and find food etc. It takes a village to raise a child as some say, and I see no reason why a father can't or shouldn't paly an equal role in raising children, so does that mean men should not be surgeons either if they ever plan to reproduce? For the record I went back to uni when my daughter was 9 months, she settled in very well with her childminder and I breast-fed her to 12 months.

I'm sure I could also find some feminist theory that would disagree with some of what you are saying but I doubt you would read it or take it on board. I suspect the mother-bond theory is simply a theory and maybe not that evidence based, and perhaps over-emphasised to suit the societal expectations men have of women. Maybe children need their mothers so much because traditionally fathers have been very hands-off? Interesting that it is written by a man. Anyway, that is my opinion, sorry I have no evidence to back it up. I think it is sad that women have to have their life choices scrutinised in such a way, men don't have this. I think it would be very wrong to make such sweeping generalisations about any other group, so why women? Can you imagine trying to argue that a certain race or sexuality couldn't be a surgeon because they might be inclined to make certain lifestyle choices?"

Too emotional?

Don't minimise your own views (sorry, just my opinion etc
Etc..) if you can avoid it. This is your lived experience - own it.

It depends on what you want to achieve. To be honest, if I were him, I would think I had touched a nerve when I read that.
That's why I would stick to evidence and scientific studies of the effects of working mothers on child development. (And it doesn't matter whether a man or a woman has written an article. We can't fall into a trap of implying all men have an agenda in this respect, otherwise we're being a little sexist too.)
I am in a different profession and I suspect I'm a good bit older than you, but I have gone through the same emotions of feeling aggrieved when sexist ideas rear their heads. But I've also found it's counterproductive to get angry. Or at least, I get angry first, and then I rise above it and let my work speak for me. I know I'm very good at what I'm doing, I currently hold a position that is more usually held by middle-aged men and I'm pleased that I don't have to talk the talk, I just walk the walk. But I realise being in a profession for 15 years gives you the opportunity to do that. Also, I honestly don't think my b

Bugger.
I don't think my bond with my kids could be any stronger.
I hope I'm not coming across as 'patronisingly older and wiser', I admire you greatly for jumping into a university course like medicine when your daughter's so young.
Just do it, though, that's the best way to show sexist assholes.

Sorry for going on, but here are some questions you could ask him:
Do you have any thoughts on the effect of a surgeon father on the father-child bond? Or is this something that you think is more pertinent to mothers? I'd be interested to know why, if this is the case.
You mention that your view is "traditional", would you accept that it's in fact rather outdated and redundant, considering the wide variety of working family practices that we're able to have in this country in the 21st century?

Doctrine - I was not trying to minimise my views, it is just that this particular guy had stated previously that he was less interested in opinions, and more interested in "evdence base" (yes he is a charmer), so that was a reference to that. I do wonder who many double blinded randomised control trials have been done on the subject of the mother-child bond?

Thank you diddle, I took a year about between 2nd and 3rd year when I fell pregnant with my daughter. Though it seems perhaps jacking it all in would have been a far less selfish thing to do! As it goes my daughter is the happiest, brightest child you have ever met!

My mum stayed at home. My brother and I both ended up with depression. My mum told us all the time how she always puts us first and told us about all the things she would have liked to have done with her life if she didn't have us and dad to look after. Now she tells me how proud she is of me doing what I am doing, but I know she quietly judges. I want my dd growing up knowing that the world is her oyster.

I love it diddle! May have to pinch a couple of those!

I knew coming on here would make me feel better. I felt a bit deflated before, like that is what everyone is secretly thinking of me.

I want to construct a well thought out response, just don't know if I have the energy!

"You mention that your view is "traditional", would you accept that it's in fact rather outdated and redundant, considering the wide variety of working family practices that we're able to have in this country in the 21st century?"

I expect his response to this would be that this is why the world/country is going to pot, or such like!

That's brilliant, what a great role model you are for your daughter. I did some research a couple of years ago that involved interviewing mothers and daughters, and it was so interest

I hope this thread takes off. Then I can post a link.

"I don't have the energy to argue with you, but here are some women who do, and will, very intelligently."

What is wrong with me?!
It was so interesting to see the close relationships between them. Some mothers had worked, some hadn't, there's no correlation that I can see between that and how a child turns out.

Or why he is a bit scared he'll not get the best opportunities, cos of all these pesky smart mothers taking all the plum jobs!!

I don't think I'm the best mother in the world, but i don't think I would be any better if I was at home all day!

Was your research published diddle? Might be useful to counter his arguments! Or did you come across any other research/theory that didn't emphasise the mother-child bond?

Interestingly it seems the obstetrician he cites talks a lot about the birth experience and very early mother-child interaction, I don't know how this translates to women staying at home in the kitchen for a lifetime...

The fact is, our little family works just fine. The only time I am aware that it is supposed to be an issue that I have a child and am studying is when I'm asked/reminded about it all the time!

try this
Goodness no! Mine was just a masters dissertation, and wasn't looking specifically at working mothers; it involved identifying girls with particular favourable characteristics and then examining their experiences of childhood and talking to their mothers to try and work out where they got those characteristics from. I'm not an academic.

Maybe medics only trust research done by other medics, but I wouldn't have thought an obstetrician was the best person to discuss the effects of working mothers on the bonding process. Surely his bit starts and ends with birth?! However, I suspect our man doesn't put much store by what social scientists say!
I agree that you having a child is only an issue for some other people. Let them get worked up about it, not your problem, not your daughter's either. hopefully she won't have to listen to the same crap when she's older!
As for him, you can dismiss his opinion quite easily and without much energy! "Isn't this a rather outdated position?" Then link to a study like the one above.
I'm sorry I haven't any other sources to share.

I suppose that one perspective is to say that there is conflicting evidence on the mother child bond, and that part of that bond is going to be on the mental health of the mother and child if the mother is a primary carer when she would rather not be.

I would then say that setting up a situation where women who work part time or women who take years out to have children and then return to work should not be surgeons is itself sexist. It is important that people can make child care arrangements that suit them and their families (including working part time and being a SAHM) and that these women can still take on important positions in society.

Rather than looking at it as a situation where women must stay at home with children or choose to be surgeons, we should be looking at women being able to do both over the course of a lifetime if they want to and are appropriately skilled as doctors.

While it is important that the medical profession is highly skilled, experienced and competent, part of patient care is not just about practical expertise, but about the psychological comfort of the patient. There is no doubt much evidence showing that patients make better recoveries if they feel they can trust the medical profession, are respected and will be treated fairly and humanely.

If a patient goes into hospital and senior staff are a sea of male faces, or indeed white faces and so on, they are more likely to feel that sexism and a lack of respect for women is at play, and feel less safe, hindering their treatment and recovery. It should then be part of patient care to recruit and train surgeons who reflect the demographics of wider society.

Regardless of what a person believes about a mother child bond, that element of women’s existence in the world has to be balanced against other issues that ensure the well being of women and people in general.

Thanks for the link diddle, I have, for now, left this fairly measured response on the board:

"Haven't got the time to respond to this properly, but below is a link that suggests children suffer no ill effects from having a mother who works, and in fact may benefit:

www.esrc.ac.uk/news-and-events/press-releases/16143/working-mothers-and-the-effects-on-children.aspx?

Haven't had time to read properly, but from what I can gather Michel Odent looked mainly at the birth experience (which unfortunately women cannot always control either) and very early interaction i.e within the first year, so this wouldn't be so relevant for a mother who takes reasonable maternity leave? Therefore not sure if his work is an argument for women to sacrifice what could be a life-long career. I have also talked to numerous people, including child psychiatrists, who have told me that attachment disorders only occur in children who suffer quite significant sustained abuse or neglect, not sure if this really applies to children of working mothers, who probably still have very strong bonds with their mothers, and also with other caregivers such as their fathers or grandparents?"

Let's see what happens!

I think that's great; non-confrontational and evidence-based.

Good luck with your career and your family!

"??I just want to say... (for the record!) I think a woman makes just as good a surgeon as a man (if not better)...I just think women have more difficult decisions to make regarding a career in surgery, and external pressures; if choosing to have a family."

I would tackle his assumptions that makes this assertion.

So if/when you [the speaker] becomes a parent, you will delegate (abdicate) parenting decisions to the woman who you have jointly had a child/children with?

Have you consciously selected a life partner with a view to her being a child-rearer for you?

Do you believe that by virtue of womanhood, her life is subordinate to your job irrespective of her earnings, achievements, qualifications, professional demands and aptitude?

You presume the partner in a surgeon's life to have more parental responsibility to child care? Is it not possible that the partner (man or woman) of the female surgeon could fulfill this role?

Is it not possible that a surgeon could make use of childcare facilities that other professions make use of.

I am not a doctor but given much surgery seems to be 8 - 5, I would have thought it was 'just a normal job' in that any working parent would have core hours but have to make provisions for when overtime is called upon. Being a surgeon you have possibly more financial freedom to have a nanny/au pair to call up for support.