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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Talking to boys about feminism and misogyny...

29 replies

curlew · 25/01/2014 09:35

..how do we do it? I had a long conversation with my 12 year old in the car yesterday about the Caroline Criado-Perez case (it was on the news-it didn't just come up in conversation!) and it was difficult to strike a balance between yes, she was the victim of attacks by people with particularly vile misogynist agendas, and yes this is the sort of thing that happens in our society to women on a regular basis, but no,most men aren't like this, and the sort of man you are going to be definitely isn't. I am very conscious of bringing up the next generation of men- how do we do it?

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WilsonFrickett · 25/01/2014 10:50

My DS is only 8 and fairly immature (ASD) so we havent really talked about the societal things yet. We have a very traditional set up at home so I talk a lot about how chores have to be shared out because everyone lives here - he's not seeing a very equal set-up (even though it's the right set up for us!) so I feel I need to balance that. I'm teaching him to cook, for example, although a lot of people feel he's too young for that I think it's important he sees that food doesnt magically appear on the table.

We do a LOT of work on consent and always have done - if someone says stop you stop, do you think X is having fun? How do you know? Why don't you ask them if they want to stop doing Y? No means no. Privacy and autonomy too. DS is very much on his own agenda so Ive always felt its vital to actively teach this.

Role modelling kindness, empathy, non-judgieness, presenting alternative povs in most situations.

And of course protecting him from the outside world as much as possible, although that's harder with a 12yo!

curlew · 25/01/2014 15:04

Yeah- we do all that too. But I think I'm starting to think I need to be finding more positive things to say to him. It all seems to be "this is how men used to be/are, and this is how you can be different" I want him to be happy and confident about being a man- tricky isn 't it?

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scaevola · 25/01/2014 15:11

As one of the trolls was female in the case currently on the news, and as there have been separate news stories this weeks about a male victim, this is a crime you can describe in the round IYSWIM showing that publishing hate speech, abuse and threats is always wrong. And that most people, male or female, are not criminals.

Then, I hope, he will get the idea that misogyny is just as wrong as anti-Semitism (and any other example you throw into the discussion). And that is a secure foundation for getting young people to think about fairness in society.

WilsonFrickett · 25/01/2014 15:14

It's bloody tricky! I think a lot of it is confidence in themselves: not being influenced by peers, porn and media. And, y'know, he's your boy - the fact you are even thinking about these things is giving you/him a head start.

curlew · 25/01/2014 15:18

Yes, we talked about one of the trolls being a woman and how women can be misogynist too. And fortunately (!) there was a female serial killer convicted last week. But he 's not daft- he can see that they are the exceptions.

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hazchem · 26/01/2014 00:18

No answers here from me but it is something I worry about. DS is nearly three and has already starting to separate things for different gender. We had two tables out for dinner last night and he said "this one for boys, this one for girls" I was a bit shocked as it's not the sort of thing we say at home and just said. "No we just have tables and chairs for people to sit on".
To add on from WilsonFrickett's role modelling I guess also pointing out when things aren't sexist. I'm not sure how it would work but I guess if you saw a show that passes the beachdal test point that out and saying why you enjoy it. Or something. It's hard to point to nkon sexisit things in our society isn't it?

curlew · 26/01/2014 08:50

Thank you for your replies- I was so hoping that lots of people would join in! Do you think I dare move this to "chat"? Grin

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curlew · 26/01/2014 08:53

Interesting about the "this is for the boys and this is for the girls" thing with the tables. Obviously my first instinct would be the same as yours. But thinking about it, I wonder if maybe we actually need to make sure they can identify as boys and that it's OK to do that? Does that make sense?

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curlew · 26/01/2014 08:56

I remember my nephew when he was about 3 "helping" to lay some concrete with his father and uncles. Afterwards he said to me-absolutely glowing with delight- "I loved doing men's things with the men". Obviously I should have said "well, laying concrete isn't a men's thing- it just so happened that it was men doing it today........."

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hazchem · 26/01/2014 09:21

That is interesting thought. I'm going to mull that over. He only used he at the moment but I think he gets girls and boys are different in a biological sense.

SwayingBranches · 26/01/2014 09:36

I've shown ds1 the Feminist Frequency videos on YouTube, talked about women who have been overlooked in history and we discuss representations in media. I also talk about racism too in he same context. About the patriarchy and racism as whole systems, about male privilege and white privilege which benefits white men as a whole but not necessarily individually. Removing it all from the personal.

On the personal level I've spoken about performing femininity and masculinity and so he can identify in life the times when he's supposed to like or dislike something based on gender or act in a certain way based on performing masculinity rather than just be himself. Which of course are seen as negative because they're associated with women/girls.

He can be quite sensitive and so I worried about the effect on him, but he's been fine and he's more confident about seeing and challenging sexism and racism when he sees and hears it. In turn he can fully be himself because he sees so much of it is artificial. I've told him he may benefit from male privilege and white privilege and I may benefit from white privilege but we don't have to perpetuate that, we can use the privilege we have in the system to call things out, to not speak for others but listen to them, give them a platform, to be aware of our own biases and what we have been socialised to think and get past that.

And of course we hopefully give examples. While I'm a sahm dh does a fair share of tedious household stuff and child stuff.

rumbelina · 26/01/2014 09:54

Swaying, how old is your ds? I really like where you are coming from.

SwayingBranches · 26/01/2014 10:02

He's almost 10, but he's always come across as a year or two older.

curlew · 26/01/2014 10:08

Swaying-that's all really interesting. We talk about masculinity as a construct and how men are pressured to conform to stereotypes a lot- my ds is a very keen sportsman, but he is also a drama/music nut. But he can only be a sportsman at school because drama and music are for girls. He isn't confident enough yet to try to challenge that. I am talking to the school about how we can address it from within, but it's very entrenched.

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PlateSpinningAtAllTimes · 26/01/2014 10:40

This is a really interesting thread. I have nothing to add but am watching with interest as I've noticed a real change in DS (4) since he started school. 'Those are girls' toys', etc.

Speaking from a teacher's perspective, I think our curriculum should be addressing these issues. Children are very clued up on racism and tend to call out racist comments straight away, but seem clueless on sexism.

The KS2 children I teach often make comments about 'boys are better at this'/'that's a girls' colour' etc, which I always challenge, but as there seems to be little about these issues in the PSHE syllabus we're very much reliant on teachers' personal views/knowledge. I wonder how many teachers have even heard of the term 'patriarchy' (in this context). I hadn't until becoming a mnetter a few years ago.

DoNotDisturb · 26/01/2014 11:49

This is really interesting stuff (first post in feminism so be gentle with meWink)

I have a five year old ds (and younger dd and ds). I hate the "girls toys" and "boys toys" thing and challenge him on it every time. He definitely gets it from school as we've never had the distinction at home. It's coming from other boys at school who I think must be getting it from their parents. At parties I hear "don't cry like a girl" etc type comments which irk me somewhat.

I feel like it's a huge tidal wave he's facing and I'm basically pushing water up hill trying to go against it..

curlew · 26/01/2014 15:32

I found it quite easy at pre school and primary. I approached it in much the say way I approached religion "some people think.....but in our house we...." I tried not to mind when he came out with the stereotyped stuff because I was pretty confident that our "home " values were pretty well imprinted. I reinforced them whenever I could, but was very aware that he needed to fit in as well, so turned a blind eye sometimes!

Now he's older it's more about what he says and does- he is having to make more and more choices on his own. And as I said, I want him to be happy and confident to be a man, despite the "arseholes" (his wordBlush) that surround him.

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SwayingBranches · 26/01/2014 17:49

curlew It's hard to do any standing up to social norms. We talk about that too. ds has the problem that he loves football but he's not particularly good at it, but being good at football confers social prestige. Thankfully, the school he's at now is a specific style of academy that expects all its pupils to succeed so he can feel free to be more academic whereas at a previous school there was very much a prevailing culture of boys mess about and are thick and girls are very good and academic which the teachers didn't appear to be able to change or change much.

I do point out on television and in movies men who succeed in things that are supposedly for girls - though the natural end of those conversations is usually that female success is overlooked, the cook v. chef type thing and of course acting is very much one of those areas. I mostly fall back on the thought that as my son is a white male he has a vast array of successful role models to look up to so whatever I say isn't going to "hurt" him and whatever type of man he turns out to be is what a man is like. But of course that he's even having any form of feminist input is going to be a positive effect!

PlateSpinning I absolutely 100% agree sexism should be taught about in schools! It's boggling that it isn't, although obviously we know why it isn't, because school curricula are designed mostly by men at the top who have the privilege of not knowing this is an issue. It's the same with racism too, that it's not just name calling. Any form of privilege actually.

DoNotDisturb (and this is points Plates raised too) I've been reading this section until it opened but have only posted in it sporadically. Obviously this topic is close to my heart as I only have two boys and so have felt sometimes that there are big strands of feminism that don't care about how boys are raised, but obviously as a feminist raising boys I really really bloody care about it! Anyway, ds's checkered school past includes initially being home educated then going to an infant school in year 1. There was never an issue of boys v. girls until then but what happened was that first he saw it and commented on it, and then he ended up emulating it because of social pressure. He became an immediate target for bullies because he'd chosen a cardigan to wear and cardigans were apparently just for girls! But in the end, even at home, he stopped playing with the girls on the street.

This was the school I mentioned earlier in the post. Strangely enough I was listening to one of the mums in the playground once going on and on to a friend about how her daughter always wore trousers, refused dresses and skirts and looked like a little whatever word it was always in trousers. Except the mum herself was never out of trousers! So even though she didn't do it the fact her daughter didn't conform to how little girls were supposed to look made her actually very angry and negative.

It is definitely overwhelming. So much "man up" and "don't cry like a girl" and so young. I just thing it needs commenting on again and again and again because as parents we have a lot of power to shape how our children see the world and if we don't challenge what we see as wrong how will they ever know? So it's not like we're fighting society, but fighting for our individual children to know what's acceptable or not. Now whether they go on to choose to be part of that or not is a different matter and part of being a parent, they will be who they will be.

I do find setting an example at home also works with regards to clothes and toys, not avoiding pink or pretty for a boy. It's funny, but I bought lots of clothes with flowers on for ds2 at one point and so he looked like a girl and it messed my head up! It was so strange. But it made it obvious to me that at 18 months the only reason we need to know if the child is male or female is to treat them differently! What else could it be?! Why would it be important to know otherwise?! Why does it enrage people so much when boys don't look like "boys" and girls don't look like "girls". Being male or female is only fundamental to us because we've decided it must be to order society in a specific way.

WilsonFrickett · 26/01/2014 19:33

Don't get me started on the 'man up' stuff! Drives me insane and yep, I'm overdue my 6-weekly row with my SFather about it...

Because DS has communication problems I read 'how to talk so children will listen' a year or so ago and I have to say it has transformed things in our house, I particularly like it because the first step in any 'situation' is to listen and validate the emotion the child is feeling, without any judgement. I'm making that sound a bit woo, but it's just about hearing what they're feeling. I don't think I'd ever be tempted into a 'big boys don't cry' conversation with my DS, but using this approach means you really can't, iyswim?

whatdoesittake48 · 27/01/2014 15:26

My son is 14 and thankfully pretty enlightened. But it is hard. I don't want him to think that i hate men or even some men - I go to great lengths to point out that i hate some of the things men do and that I don't want him to do them either.

it is a fine line.

He is just discovering what it means to be a man and all I can do is try to set good examples of how i expect to be treated. My husband does all the cooking in our house and quite a bit of housework so he has a good role model in that respect.

That said. poor role models are everywhere too.

DoNotDisturb · 28/01/2014 08:35

It's hard isn't it because being a kid
Is so hard anyway and it's understandable that our kids want to fit in and conform. However, I want my ds's to grow up as enlightened nice men so I have to challenge these things in the house I think.

Like others I'm a sahm so I worry about the stereotype I'm showing him however, dh pulls his weight when around so ds sees him cooking and washing dishes. So far in the home there is no issue. Ds cooks and washes dishes with me and also helps me with diy etc so he has no distinction of male and female roles in the home Grin

However it upsets me that already at 5 the boys play with the boys at school and the girls with the girls. I challenge any stereotypes he comes out with by having a discussion about it rather than just saying that's not true.

Having both boys and a girl I find that the outside world is much more comfortable with a "tomboy" than a girly boy. My own mother physically pales when ds 7 months is in a pink sleeping bag or bumbo handed down from his sister... What on earth is that about!

With dd I find the "isn't she pretty" "what a pretty dress" comments irritating. My 2 year old dd is already being conditioned that her real worth is in her looks! But I guess that's a different thread Wink

curlew · 28/01/2014 08:59

I think the jobs round the house thing can be dealt with so long as you start young enough- making sure that both boys and girls do their share of helping to keeping things running. And (this is a hobby horse of mine!) teaching kindness and consideration regardless of gender. For example, at the moment, the two people who are out of the house for longest and working hardest are DP (manic project at work) and DD (year 13, in a play and music exams). So ds and I are taking on their share of the routine jobs. Not because of any sort of gender divide- just because we can, and ds gets great pleasure from taking dd's turn at cooking so she can fall in the door and collapse on the sofa.

A lot of problems can be solved by kindness and consideration.

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JoinYourPlayfellows · 28/01/2014 09:35

I would have thought that the main man in his life, living in his home providing a daily example of what it is to be a decent man living in the world should mean he is confident and happy about the kind of man he is going to grow up to be.

And the other men he meets, your brothers, friends, cousins, father etc. They will be the men he looks up to. And hopefully they will provide plenty of evidence that lots of men are good men.

curlew · 28/01/2014 09:41

Absolutely. He has several fantastic role models. But he is out in the world more and more- and there are more negatives than positives, sadly.

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TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 28/01/2014 09:41

Another feminist raising boys.

Must read that how to talk... Book!

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