On BBC today - "Is there a tech solution for hatred of women?"

[NiceTabard]

here

In the wake of the convictions today of threats etc to 2 women on twitter. The article comes from a standpoint that women are targeted on the net in a certain way & possible reasons for it.

It is a much stronger article than I am used to reading on the BBC and quite enjoyed it! The later comments are also broadly interesting.

What strikes me is that the article included the bald statement from a US tech journalist:

"If it's a social problem and not a technological one, what is the root of it? Ms Norton, believes it is stark:

"The social problem is that men are raised to hate women and technology is not going to fix that. What's going to fix that is a societal conversation about why that is and why it shouldn't be, and why women aren't a threat to men. And the technology gives us the opportunity to have that conversation. It's not always a pleasant conversation, but we need to have it. Just shutting down the voices we don't like doesn't make the sentiments go away."

This of course has resulted in a lot of reaction (understandably TBH) from men saying well I don't hate women so that is wrong, men have mothers who they love so that is wrong...

It's an interesting point for discussion though, as TBH the language and attitudes about women in day to day life belie an attitude of, if not universal hatred, certainly plenty of other negative feelings. Even ones which are so common they go un-noticed.

I think that men in general are certainly raised to see women in a range of ways that are not good. Not all of that translates to "hatred". Just maybe being dismissive / patronising / only interested in women of they are sexually appealing. Maybe even tiny things like my dad will always draw attention to a "bloody woman" doing something wrong, whereas when a man does the same thing he doesn't mention the sex of the miscreant! In my own life there are just tiny things every day that all add up to, well yes, generally men are raised to view women negatively, in some ways. Even the ones they like

From the POV of Ms Norton, having spent a decade looking into this I can well imagine that it must feel like all men are raised to hate women!

Anyway.

Bit of a stream of consciousness there! What do you think?

...tempting though

I'm all about waistcoat's. A man needs to be properly dressed before I can properly objectify him.

Well he's not seeing the elves as individuals is he, he's fetishising them based on their cute pointy ears and teeny weeny diminutive physique.

He should get out there and talk to some elves in real life and realise that they are actual people with different personalities and stuff.

Erm.

I think?

Yeah tell him that

That is possibly the most odd claim I've heard in a while, buffy.

I'm now picturing you as a rather effeminate Legolas (if that's not tautology). It's not a happy image.

It is funny though, attraction. DH is, IMHO, rather gorgeous but he's not stereotypically attractive on account of being about four foot wide at the shoulders (and downwards) with a big beard. And I didn't reckon he was very attractive, but now I'm with him, I find myself looking at big blond beared men and thinking 'phwoar'. It's most disturbing.

The thing is, and this is the kicker.

I would not be disconcerted if there were pictures of semi naked attractive men everywhere, really, I wouldn't mind seeing them at all. I am attracted to men, and in quite a basic way. Oh look good looking muscular man with a 6 pack and hardly any clothes, on what's not to like?

Well sure, but do I want pictures like that all over the place, do I want page 3 replaced with a fit young bloke stroking an impressive erection through his pants?

Well, no. Because it would make many young men, and boys, feel really uncomfortable. It might make them feel inadequate, self-conscious and possibly creeped out. Lots of older people probably wouldn't be very keen. And generally because objectification isn't something to aim for in either sex.

Just because I am perfectly happy to see fit male flesh around the place doesn't mean that I think it should be there.

The thing is that heterosexual men simply don't understand that, the other way around.

Why not?

We seem to have drifted away from the topic a little though...

Probably my fault!

It feels a bit late but I was going to post about trolls! Anyone still interested?

Yep go for it.

YY, spot on nice.

Please post, tewi.

I find it wearing that everything, and I mean everything is only true if it is accompanied by a scientific study.
Do you not know your own minds at all? Do you never agree with others in rl without having to have a study to believe what they say? What a truly awful way to live. What is the use at all of your own mind?

Why should anyone believe anything you say?

No study. So I dont believe you.

yep, and shouting troll means now that job is done.

Seriously, start working on your own inner self. Know your own mind. Start believing in yourself.

Oh, thank you!

I think I do know myself. I try to educate myself all the time, but it is so hard when people like you won't help out. And I did ask nicely.

Do you not know what you were talking about, or are you afraid I will demolish it too quickly? Honestly, even if I disagreed, I would be very polite to you, so there is no need to feel worried.

See, I'm interested you say that, because that is what I feel must be true, but not being a scientist I know I'm ignorant.

I do think it is fascinating, though. I mean, not to get too philosophical, but isn't the point that we actually don't 'know' our own minds. I mean, Socrates wasn't knocking off a quick platitude when he came up with that one, he meant, it's really bloody difficult to know your own mind. We second-guess ourselves all the time. That is what conditioning is all about.

Um

Well on this very thread

If I happen across an image of an attractive man with a ripped body in tight pants, while going about my daily business, I will think, mmm very nice. And then think, really there shouldn't be objectifying images of anyone around though. Just to flog some ties or whatever it is.

OTOH Buffy likes a bit of context, personality and so on.

Now. According to some on this thread, as we both know our own minds, we must both be objectively RIGHT.

But we can't be, can we.

So, where does that leave us? Maybe with a broader study, giving complex conclusions. Hmmmm

Essentially, I do think what was posted above about people sharing misogynistic views online that they would not dare voice in real life is true, I think the gathering of these people together and that they then use violent threats as a display to gain group status is all true. (I phrase d that horribly but you know what I mean)

It seems to me that the flipside of how the internet has enabled trolls to exist and grow in numbers, is that the internet has also enabled feminists, gay rights campaigners etc to gather together as well, it seems based on the last few years that feminist's are extremely good at using online media to start getting the kind of changes and discussion they would like.

But I think it also breeds the us vs them mentality, that living in different camps that only cross paths to argue, and I think that reflects in government level politics all over the western world. (I'm thinking about rise in intolerance, basically, and policies designed to be difficult for those different to those setting the rules - the difficult some leaders have had trying to pass legislation that protect s those who are disadvantaged etc)

What I mean is, is tech making us less tolerant and more ingrained in our views? Because there is always someone that agrees or admires the most horrendous point of view?

It makes me think that violent threats against feminists and other groups aren't likely to go away unless misogyny completely disappears.

Which is obvious probably!

Wasn't it Commander that brought studies onto the threads in the first place?

To do with how men and women and older children (!) judge attractiveness in the same way?

Then said it was something he'd seen on the telly?

That was really hard to type (new device) so please excuse my inarticulateness.

Ah yes here was the Method:

"They put up pictures and the people/children grade the pictures or photos."