On BBC today - "Is there a tech solution for hatred of women?"

[NiceTabard]

here

In the wake of the convictions today of threats etc to 2 women on twitter. The article comes from a standpoint that women are targeted on the net in a certain way & possible reasons for it.

It is a much stronger article than I am used to reading on the BBC and quite enjoyed it! The later comments are also broadly interesting.

What strikes me is that the article included the bald statement from a US tech journalist:

"If it's a social problem and not a technological one, what is the root of it? Ms Norton, believes it is stark:

"The social problem is that men are raised to hate women and technology is not going to fix that. What's going to fix that is a societal conversation about why that is and why it shouldn't be, and why women aren't a threat to men. And the technology gives us the opportunity to have that conversation. It's not always a pleasant conversation, but we need to have it. Just shutting down the voices we don't like doesn't make the sentiments go away."

This of course has resulted in a lot of reaction (understandably TBH) from men saying well I don't hate women so that is wrong, men have mothers who they love so that is wrong...

It's an interesting point for discussion though, as TBH the language and attitudes about women in day to day life belie an attitude of, if not universal hatred, certainly plenty of other negative feelings. Even ones which are so common they go un-noticed.

I think that men in general are certainly raised to see women in a range of ways that are not good. Not all of that translates to "hatred". Just maybe being dismissive / patronising / only interested in women of they are sexually appealing. Maybe even tiny things like my dad will always draw attention to a "bloody woman" doing something wrong, whereas when a man does the same thing he doesn't mention the sex of the miscreant! In my own life there are just tiny things every day that all add up to, well yes, generally men are raised to view women negatively, in some ways. Even the ones they like

From the POV of Ms Norton, having spent a decade looking into this I can well imagine that it must feel like all men are raised to hate women!

Anyway.

Bit of a stream of consciousness there! What do you think?

Buffy, that's brilliant.

Ahhhh got ya.

Sorry, my brain is at a low ebb today.

I agree with you and with grennie.

Something that made me really angry this morning was reading that after another twitter 'debate' that got derailed by trolls hurling abuse at women, someone on the Guardian comments says 'but trolls would be the same to men'.

I really don't get why it isn't obvious to more people that internet trolling is incredibly gendered. And yet I'm sure that person meant to be kind. It's as if they think it's an enormous compliment to women to say 'oh, it's ok, you're getting the same kind of abuse as men do, way to go you.'

Your 1333 post - didn't refresh!

Seven of nine appears in spray painted Lycra, LRD she is... Err, shapely...

I thought the issue here was that, if men are also trolled, frankly so what? Anti-woman aggression is what gets discussed in feminist circles. Feminists don't feel inclined or equipped to deal with the trolling of men, and frankly that isn't their fight. They have enough on their plate.

I googled, doctrine.

arte - I don't know if I always feel 'so what' about it, but I certainly feel fed up people seem to think it'll comfort women to hear that they're being trolled the same way as men, as if it somehow implies that makes it better. Kind of like people used to say that if the boys were pushing me about, it was ok because they were treating me as one of them - as if I should be so flattered by that I didn't mind being knocked over.

It is a pervasive attitude, at least in UK society. It's a race to the bottom, rather than trying to raise us up. Re the reduction of public sector pensions, as an example, government bets down PS workers' benefits because private sector pensions are being destroyed. So if men get abused, women should expect it too.

Is this peculiar to the UK?

Re the appearance thing, this is bound to date my knowledge of UK TV presenters but I disagree that the focus on appearance is genderless. Nicholas Witchell vs Fiona Bruce? Frank Bough vs Sue Lawley? Reggie Bosanquet resplendent with his toupee vs Anna Ford?

Not sure about the idea that it is all positive for women who are conventionally sexually attractive, TBH.

It's a bit of a bind really.

Girls and women are raised and socialised to adhere to a pretty high level of physical attractiveness - their faces, their hair, their body shape (including standards for individual body parts), their clothing, even their eyelashes and toenails - are all under scrutiny. This leads to women and girls having lots of low self esteem, and impacts their finances and for those who really work at it, their free time and ultimately their freedom.

OTOH women and girls who are naturally conventionally physically attractive and/or beautiful, often start getting unwanted and often scary attention from older men at a young age, and spend a lot of time fending off unpleasant comments, unwanted come-ons, threats when come-ons are rejected and all the rest of it. To the extent that many of them hate the reaction their looks garner and wish they were more anonymous.

That's the bind for women really isn't it.

Not much point referencing women like madonna & lady gaga in reference to everyday people. They are in entertainment, they clearly have drive & ambition, and confidence, and enjoy attention and are happy to use their sexuality to get attention and thus assist them with their success. Well that's all well and good but I don't see what it does to add to this conversation TBH.

Oh and the other thing that I thought on reading this thread is that there seems to be a focus on slebs, from some posters.

Ordinary women posting ordinary stuff are met with misogynistic abuse on the net. It's not just limited to famous women, by any stretch. Some people see a female name and think "right I'll threaten a spot of rape here". Same as some people see a female in the pub and think "right I'll cop a feel here", or see a female walking down the street and think "right I'll beep and shout a load of abuse here" etc etc.

Then of course there are the "reasonable" ones who on the net will "logically prove" that eg sexism doesn't exist or doesn't matter, and in real life will gently explain why women shouldn't get maternity pay or take up boxing. Or whatever it might be.

I am not convinced that the fact that much of society is pretty misogynistic / or at least (best) dismissive of females is terribly well hidden TBH.

Buffy. I may be wrong but is it not proven that men and women judge attractiveness very similarly?

And older children too. They agree with the adults.

How would you go about proving that?

Would it not be conditioned?

And I think it would matter whether you're talking about one geographical area or another, wouldn't it?

They put up pictures and the people/children grade the pictures or photos.

Which suggestion Buffy. I think you made about 3

How would that work?

I agree with buffy, what you are describing is what she's saying, I think?

When you think about it, women seem inevitably to be valued in relation to men. When we say 'unattractive' what we mean is unattractive to men

No. Unattractive to men and women and older children.

Dont kid yourself. They all think the same. They all know. We all know.

It seems to me that lesbianism rather demonstrates that 'attractive to men' and 'attractive' are different things.

I'm not a lesbian, but I know perfectly well which women I'm attracted to would also be attractive to most men, and which wouldn't.

Sorry, cross posted.

Due respect, commander, but you will have to do better than that.

Which study is this? How rigorous was it? How could it discount social conditioning?

Just stuff I have seen on TV

I knew you would want details, studies, backgrounds etc etc to even start to believe something, especially something you dont like.