"Girly Books/Films, Twilight/Hunger Games et al.

[Daerve]

Feeling brave so thought I'd dip my toe in here.

I hate the whole hype around Twilight and Hunger Games for the simple reason that they are utter crap and IMO demean Women. Films such as Hunger Games and particularly Titanic reduce absolute tragedies to nothing more than a gushing pile of love mush.

I find it incredibly patronising towards Women and having read half of Twilight have no idea why it's sold so incredibly well when the writing is so utterly awful.

What are feminists views on this? I personally think it does women no favours at all but then I am seeing it from the angle of having a penis.

There you go, not sure what response will be forthcoming but I'm ready....

Hunger Games went down pretty well with feminists for the most part, Twilight very badly!
I haven't seen the Hunger Games films so perhaps they overdo the love story element.

Hunger games film is awful awful awful, makes a really strong female character look like a lovesick puppy.

Battle Royale did it so much better, IMO of course.

I don't recognise your description of Katniss.
She's motivated by a desire to protect her sister and then justice. That's based in the first two films, I've not read them.

I don't get the Hunger Games thing. Yeah, she falls in love, but if anything, Peeta is the lovesick puppy?

Have you actually read the Hunger Games? The last book especially is one of the most powerful books I've ever read! The films are great, not as good as the books, but still really goof. I think Jennifer Lawrence does Katniss justice. I don't really get where you're coming from there. She's definitely not a lovesick puppy! She's doing what she can to survive. She's also trying to protect her sister.

good not goof

Twilight I agree - appalling book, and was the basis for the even more appalling 50 shades of grey.

I disagree on the hunger games however. I think that katniss is a powerful female character, and the romance story throughout the trilogy definitely play secondary to the main storyline. I would argue that katniss's primary relationship in the hunger games is between her and her sister.

I have read the Hunger Games books and seen the films. I think it is never made clear that Katniss really loves him in a romantic sense at all. The sisters are the main relationship.

I haven't read the Hunger Games, I foolishly and unusually for me watched the film first.

Perhaps lovesick puppy is a bit strong and I agree that the primary relationship is with her sister but this features so little in the film it gets totally lost.

I just think the film turns a genuine battle for survival in to little more than a teenage love story which is a real missed opportunity and left me feeling that the film missed the point. Besides which, the quality of the films/books isn't really my issue, it's the portrayal of strong women going starry eyed at a "boy".

Twilight in particular has some of the worst character structure I've ever read, I genuinely hoped Edward would eat the miserable sod and be done with it.

Haven't seen the film of Hunger Games but agree with others about the book.

I don't think Twilight or Titanic have any feminist credentials do they? Twilight is a portrayal of an abusive relationship and Titanic is well...!

And I think you'll find most films portray women in relation to a man tbh

Even in the films it is pretty clear that for the first two parts Katniss loves Gale, not Peeta. And Gale hardly appears. The whole point is that Katniss makes choices based on ethics not her own personal happiness. It is taking a very ordinary commonplace choice that women make and giving it the kind of messianic overtones usually reserved for male characters.

I've read the Hunger Games and I think Katniss is a very strong female lead, she fights for her own survival and basically plays on the fact Peeta loves her to save both of them.

I agree with Freya, it's quite obvious Gale is her true love, but she has to survive the situation she's in, but I don't agree that falling in love makes her non-feminist

Totally agree on Twighlight, it's nonsense, but don't lump Hunger Games into the same boat just because it's fairly recent!! Twightlight has sold well because it's aimed at teenagers (as is Hunger Games) which is why you might find the writing awful, it's not meant to be an adult novel

Interesting discussion, I agree to a point about Hunger Games but was still left feeling that the female lead was compromised to a point by the story and clearly in order to appeal to a teenage audience.

I regularly vent with my wife about these sort of popular films/books and my disdain for them in relation to the portrayal of female characters. Just wanted to get a wider view on them.

Incidentally my wife was pretty meh about the whole thing too, including shades of grey (which I haven't read).

I suppose it comes down to the fact that I think there's much more out there for Women than these popular patronising books/films.

I don't see that Katniss was compromised and I love both the books and films. my only issue is the casting of a white actress. I find Twilight unreadable, but that is due to it having an introspective and self absorbed narrator, like the Bell Jar. I think that offers something to teens, but it is hard for me to understand how they engage with the plot because I am old.

OK, having read and seen The Hunger Games and Battle Royale (which is a book as well), I don't think they are that comparable.

And for the record, OP, I thought the same as you when The Hunger Games came out. Battle Royale already did that. But each story approaches the games from a different angle.

Battle Royale comes from the director's experience of war and is telling a story about lots of different people hence why Kaneda and Noriko are not that developed as characters (I would argue that Noriko is far more a damselesque character than Katniss).You are supposed to put yourself in their place.

The Hunger Games otoh is a rather vicious commentary on American consumerism and materialism. But it is also about Katniss specifically. Strangely enough, what you object to about Katniss seeming subsumed is part of that commentary. In the book, the romance with Peeta is, at least on Katniss' part, a strategy to keep alive and win sponsors. This is because the Capitol loves a good romance and to them, the games are a mere entertainment. And it is notable that Katniss saves Peeta which is not what is normally seen. It is not perfect, but it is a start. Plus she can shoot a bow and arrow which is cool.

Also, could we not use the word 'girly' as an insult, please? That just perpetuates views of anything feminine or that women or girls like as inferior.

Note; I've only read the books not seen the films.

Twilight glorifies a controlling relationship.

Hunger Games shows a young woman in control of herself and her life as far as possible within the constraints of a dystopian society.

That's my take.

By the way, what does the phrase, "does women no favours" mean to you?

"does women no favours" means to me, does nothing to forward feminism and women's rights.

Phrased badly on my part.

I must also add that the use of girly was not used as an insult, it was used as a pretext of the type of consumer that tends to buy these book/films.

I could use female orientated if that would be better. :-)

I know, but 'girly' is often used as a synonym for 'silly and vapid' which seemed to be what you were saying about these films. Also, films aimed at women are often dismissed precisely because they are aimed at women. Have you never heard anyone say ' oh, that's just a chick flick?'

Daerve, the reason I don't like that phrase is that you never hear that "X" does men no favours. It implies that there is a default group with whom the rest have to catch up or match up. So I can imagine someone saying "[famous gay man] does gay men no favours" or "[famous black man] does black people no favours" but not, say, "The 40 Year Old Virgin does men no favours" - do you see what I mean?

If I am honest, 14 year old me would have loved Twilight because Bella is clumsy and still ends up with a hottie (even if he is an undead vampire). A 32 year old me is more cynical.

BuffyTheNotVeryGoodFeminist?

Only joking!

Since an awful lot of humans spend an awful lot of their time in couple relationships, I've never quite understood why love stories are "female orientated" - and as observed above, Peeta is more into Katniss than she is into him; I think that Gale is also more into her than vice versa.

Titanic is a film about a bloody big boat - and Rose walks away from her comfortable life with Mr Rich But Creepy to presumably make her own way in America. Could have skipped the Celine Dion part, though.

Somehow I never think of films about men killing other men without compunction or emotion as "doing men no favours" even though killing people willy nilly is more frowned on in society than, err, starting a relationship...