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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Disney Princesses

42 replies

annabellesmum123 · 08/01/2014 18:55

Why is Disney's image of a Princess so popular today?! My DD seems to aspire to Cinderella like nobody's business! I was just wondering seeing as the princesses seem to just make women seem purely there for the use of men and as sexual

OP posts:
annabellesmum123 · 08/01/2014 18:56

*objects it just doesn't seem right!

OP posts:
SplitHeadGirl · 08/01/2014 21:29

I think it has to be the marketing...the beautiful dresses, the shoes, the lovely songs. My little daughter is so adventurous - she climbs trees, jumps in puddles, plays with spiders, hides in our attic, is ALWAYS on her scooter, yet she LOVES her princess dresses! Confused

All I can do is point her in the direction of Merida and Belle, who are decent role models, and telling her I am hiding not finding the other dresses, wherever they are...Wink

StormEEweather · 09/01/2014 12:18

It's so hard to avoid, isn't it? My DD got the Cinderella DVD for Christmas and a relative took her to the ice skating show. When she asked me who my favourite princess was recently I said Pearl from Julia Donaldson's Zog, because she is a doctor.

WidowWadman · 09/01/2014 12:23

Read Peggy Orenstein's "Cinderella ate my daughter" - very enlightening.

To be honest I don't fret half as much as I used to. My daughter's favourite Disney princess is Rapunzel, which I don't think is that bad, and she enjoys many other things other than pink glittery crap, too

PenguinsDontEatKale · 09/01/2014 12:51

Do you mean why the Disney image, or why princesses?

I think the Disney image is so prevalent because their cartoons are the classic rendition of many traditional fairy tales and they are a big corporation who own the rights to the images. Why they all have to be sexualised and made over (a la Merida) to be a Disney Princess I have no fucking idea.

As for why princesses, I think it has a lot to do with the drive to render toys applicable to one gender or the other, doubling (or so) the market by limiting hand me downs, etc.

Lovecat · 10/01/2014 11:45

Disney is a massive corporation who, with the advent of cable tv and DVDs, have cornered the market in fairy tale adaptations - when I grew up you NEVER got to see Disney on telly apart from in tiny clips and they only released about 3 movies a year to the cinema in rotation, so there were a fair few different versions of Snow White/Cinderella/Sleeping Beauty, etc., mainly in books.

As for Princesses themselves... purely from observation I think girls go through a Princess phase - I saw another MNer a while back refer to it as Princess Fever, which is quite apt - everything has to be pink/frilly/glittery. However, when DD went through her own version of this, I was amused and interested to see that when in her princess dress, she was not a victim waiting for her prince to rescue her, she was more of a mini-termagent ("I'm the Princess so I'm IN CHARGE!") and the game involved bossing everyone else about... :)

Having seen Frozen I would really recommend it as an alternative Princess movie - it passes the Bechdel Test with flying colours, has brilliant songs and the princess sisters are brilliant together. It also rubbishes the idea of love at first sight ;-)

LittleSweetheart · 10/01/2014 22:06

Lovecat I am taking DD to see Frozen this weekend...do you think Hollywood is FINALLY catching on to the whole 'girls who like Princesses are also pretty spunky' thing?

PrincessTeacake · 10/01/2014 22:34

Ah, you just hit on one of my most passionate argument subjects. Prepare for incoming wall of text.

When Walt Disney started his company, it was far from the mass-media conglomerate it is now, it was a two-room studio where his wife washed rostrum plates in between frames to save money. The Disney princess line-up features princesses whose films were made in 1937, 1950 and 1959.

Snow White, for example, is the very definition of 'Fair for its Day.' It was extremely pioneering for its time, and made by a skeleton crew not to appeal to little girls and sell toys, but to be screened to everyone as a feature film. It was based on a centuries old folk tale (chosen because it's in the public domain and no royalties need to be paid) and because animating realistic figures was difficult, most of the film is made up of the dwarves doing cartoony things because they're just easier to draw.

Cinderella is a similar story, Disney had lost a lot of money with Fantasia and was looking to make it back with a family-friendly, accessible tale that wouldn't put strain on the studio. Roughly half of the film is slapstick with the mice because again, that's easier and cheaper to animate.

To judge the early princesses by today's standards is like judging Gone With The Wind on its marginalized negro characters and Metropolis on its special effects; it's just not fair. Heavy market-influenced tailoring to sell the films to specific demographics didn't start happening until the late seventies, early eighties, and Disney did try to make its princesses more progressive. That said, it is difficult to write compelling female characters when your studio is hiring a mostly male crew to storyboard, and very few females were working in animation back then.

Princesses aren't bad, democracy is a relatively new thing to Europe at large and the easiest way for any woman to survive comfortably up until quite recently was to marry well into high society, and marrying a prince was the ultimate version of that. Taking Disney's Cinderella as an example, how else was she going to escape her situation? Run away? In what looks like pre-revolutionary France? She would have ended up in a brothel, as a scullery maid to an even worse person or just dead in a ditch. And she would have lost all her friends and her childhood home in the process. Also, her relationship with her stepmother was a pretty clear example of extreme emotional abuse and a quick look at the narc threads over in Relationships will tell you how hard it is to just cut and run.

Being a Disney princess doesn't automatically mean the character is devoid of any worth to a girl watching. Merida and Belle are quite strong yes, but they all have their good qualities. Snow White is nurturing and firm with the dwarves, Cinderella is all about keeping hope in a horrible situation (very useful if, like me, you grew up with someone who drove a steamroller over your sense of self-worth) Ariel is a risk-taking idealist etc.

If you find the films and the merch a bit dry, might I suggest Amy Mebberling's Pocket Princesses series on Tumblr? She draws little comics of them all living together, it adds a lot of depth to their characters and it's downright adorable. I especially loved how she dressed them all up as past and present Doctor Whos.

amymebberson.tumblr.com/

wanderings · 20/01/2014 08:56

Frozen. A refreshing change from the older Disney Princess stuff.

Edenviolet · 20/01/2014 09:01

My dd2 loves disney princesses and everything pink and glittery. She keeps asking for make up as well and she's only four.

In comparison dd1 at the same age only liked spongebob (and wore her costume every day!), enjie benjy and had a brio set that she loved. Ds1 liked dresses (only blue ones though as apparently they were ok for boys according to him?!) and ds2 often wants to wear dd2s ballet skirt.

I'm not bothered at all about dd2 loving all things pink and princessy, at some point she will like something different the choice is hers. She really adores elsa from frozen and keeps saying that she's like elsa as elsa isn't perfect (I think its the bit in the song where she sings "that perfect girl is gone").

Rubybrazilianwax · 21/01/2014 12:43

For me its about balance. Dressing up as a princess is just another role play.( So far today dd 4 has worn a belle dress, a luminous workmans jacket and tool belt and now one of myscarfs as a sari) I can't understand why people get so worked up about the whole princess toys/films etc influencing girls. If you are going to raise a daughter who falls for the hype, then shame on the parents for not reinforcing a sttonger message. Disney will churn it out as long as people buy it, its not like Disney make it their mission to be anti feminist, they just want to make money.

blackandwhiteandredallover · 21/01/2014 12:48

Frozen made me cry Blush I agree it's much better than the other disney princess films.

pinkthechaffinch · 21/01/2014 12:57

princessteacake, I found your post really interesting.

wigglesrock · 21/01/2014 14:47

princessteacake I found it interesting too. I'm actually watching Cinderella now, I forgot how much of it was animal animation. We're 20 mins in & I think Cinderella has been in it for about 5 mins. It's all about the cat & mouses!

lauralouise90 · 24/01/2014 13:52

PrincessTeaCake - I love your view on this and I completely agree. All the Princesses have layers to them other than looking for their prince.

Personally though i don't see why looking for your prince is considered a bad thing. The princesses all find the perfect person for them and don't settle for anything less (eg Belle & Gaston) - surely it's a good message to pass onto DDs that the perfect person for you is out there?

PuppyMonkey · 24/01/2014 13:55

My DD loves Merida from Brave, though (Merida's not after a bloke, she kicks ass to save her mum). Grin

SingSongSlummy · 24/01/2014 13:56

Thanks for this thread. DD1 who is just 4 has suddenly entered the princess phase and I have just showed her Tangled and Cinderella. She got some princess costumes for Christmas and I had started fretting that I was helping her down the wrong path with this somehow. Can someone tell me which film Merida is in as I haven't heard of that one? Off to look up cinema times for Frozen....

LurcioLovesFrankie · 24/01/2014 14:04

I loved Frozen (Disney in modelling good and bad relationships and explaining the difference shocker!). Also fond of Tangled. Love Merida (she doesn't marry any of them). Bit m'eh about The Princess and the Frog, though. Great score, great to see a non-white princess... but the prince... He's not a keeper, is he? He's going to screw around behind her back, shirk his share of the work in the restaurant and generally mess up.

As for Beauty and the Beast - visually stunning, but a horrible, horrible message - you are kidnapped and held against your will by a grumpy, abusive captor, but if you, note you, love him enough, he will miraculously change and it will all turn out happily ever after. Every time I see it I just think of all the women in abusive relationships being socially coerced to stay.

And yes, good relationships are utterly life-enhancing. But training your daughter to sit on her arse waiting passively for her prince to come? No thank you. (Fortunately - see Frozen, Tangled) Disney do seem to finally be getting a bit better at that.

wigglesrock · 24/01/2014 14:14

SingSongSlummy Merida is from Brave. I quite like Mulan as well.

EEatingSoupForLunch · 24/01/2014 14:22

Saw Frozen with DD, it was great from a Bechdel point of view but made me sob - my DDs have similar age gap and even similar names, and I have a crazy sister whose icy heart I would love to be able to melt Sad

I'm with Lurcio on B&B, though and bloody Ariel winds me up with her anatomically impossible waistline and marriage at 16 to the first bloke she meets, who 5 minutes ago was ready to marry someone else,not being bright enough to spot she is actually evil.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 24/01/2014 18:33

I think original Cinderella and original Snow White and original Alice were quite different creatures though - young, pretty but normal, no sexy vamping or impossible waists.

1937 snow white

PrincessTeacake · 24/01/2014 20:30

Snow White was created using rotoscoping, an animation technique utilized by essentially videotaping a real person's actions and then tracing over them. Back when it was made animating a realistic human character was unheard of, Disney were firm users of the rubber-pipe limb technique. Snow White was played by Marge Champion, that's why she looks so much younger than the other princesses and has short hair. Marge had a professional dancer's body and hair is notoriously difficult to animate unless it's rendered as one solid mass or just cut short.

(Marge can be seen in action in this video: )

The unnatural proportions in the more modern pictures are down to stylizing in the animation medium, it's not unique to Disney. Dreamworks animation has just about all of its characters as stringy beanpoles with heads bigger than their waists but few ever complain and anime is a different story altogether. It's common in illustration to exaggerate features to make them more expressive. An animated character that looks too realistic usually falls victim to the Uncanny Valley effect, as in the character looks so realistic but still so subtly 'off' that it makes the audience uncomfortable. (See Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within for details.)

The idea that most of the princesses just wait for their man to rescue them is such a lazy interpretation and taken severely out of context. Ariel had a long-standing infatuation with the surface world long before she saw the prince, and when her father completely overstepped his boundaries by destroying her possessions, that was the catalyst that drove her to ask the witch for help. Picture it another way: let's say a Muslim teenager became infatuated with Western culture and her very traditional father discovered her collection of Hollywood DVDs and set fire to them, driving her to seek the help of people traffickers to flee the country. It's largely the same story, with or without a romance involved.

Belle's story is not as cut-and-dry as Stockholm Syndrome: The Movie. The Beast was never outright abusive, she originally stayed in the house to free her father and he lost his temper and scared her a few times but ultimately showed himself to be a good person. And he let her leave of her own free will, she also returned of her own free will. A more clear example of abuse is Cinderella's stepmother, there was deliberate malice in her actions whereas the Beast was plain antisocial and awkward.

And the question of positive role models is a falsehood. Lauding Mulan and Merida as positive while deriding Cinderella and Snow as negative is going against one of the basic rights of feminism, the right to be any kind of person you want to be. Not all little girls want to play with weapons or go on adventures. Some little girls want to fall in love and get married and live happily ever after. Some want to read books all day, some want to collect random odds and ends for their aesthetic purposes. There is no right way to be a person, as long as you don't go out of your way to do harm to another human being.

I'll cite a franchise that makes this message a little clearer: My Little Pony. Does your daughter like to grow flowers? So does Posie. Is she a daredevil? So is Firefly. Is she nurturing? Give her Baby Cuddles. Does she long to be more grown-up and glamorous? Give her Heartthrob. These can be applied to the princesses as well, for every Merida-like tomboy there's also a homebody Snow White baking pies or an artsy Rapunzel drawing on your walls.

HoneyDragon · 24/01/2014 20:42

We went to DisneyLand Paris in the summer. We went to Cafe Auberge so dd could have lunch with the Princesses. Her long suffering brother came along.

Ds left with his first ever crush. On Aurora.

He watched with his mouth open wide and said "Mum, she's amazing ".

And she was. She was surrounded by various children and was conversing with them all. Fluently, in each of their languages. Whilst maintaining her character, and noting the cameras to pose appropriately.

He later met Prince Charming. He spent the entire week deciding he wanted to work hard at school and do that job and make children feel special.

When his sister announce she wants to be a princess he tells her she better work hard and learn to speak Manderin Grin

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 24/01/2014 23:32

Princess Teacake, modern My Little Ponies freak me out.

legoplayingmumsunite · 25/01/2014 01:28

I don't understand why romantic stories are considered appropriate at all for young girls. Why can't there be more stories about girls just having adventures? Romance can be left till they are older surely?

We went to see Frozen recently and while there were things I did like about it (the sisters' relationship, and the song 'Let it Go' where Elsa finally decides to stop hiding her power and uses it to create the castle) there were still lots of issues, particularly when you compare it to the source material: The Snow Queen. In the Snow Queen Gerda saves Kay with the help of the Witch (she's maybe not so much help!), the Princess, the Robber Girl, the Lapp Woman and the Finn Woman. See how many women are important characters in that story. In comparison there is Elsa, Anna, and the female troll in Frozen. So the depth of female characters just isn't there, all the minor characters are male and indeed most of the main characters as well. And I didn't like Elsa's excessive wiggle when she became the Snow Queen, personally I thought it jarred against the very powerful song.

I sometimes think with Disney they do just enough with their big Princess movies to make them appear 'more feminist' than older versions but actually they are only make a few concessions to feminism. In 10 years we'll be looking at Brave, Frozen and Tangled and thinking 'but they were not feminist enough'.

I don't want Disney princesses looking for a prince for my girls, I want Lilo from Lilo and Stitch, Vanellope from Wreck it Ralph, and Alice in Wonderland. Girls having adventures. Oh, and a Pixar female buddy film to balance all the male buddy films. No princesses.