A really good article on the lack of women in STEM

[GoshAnneGorilla]

It focuses on IT programming, but it's a really good demonstration of the benefits given to those who "look" the part, compared to those who don't.
pgbovine.net/tech-privilege.htm

Really interesting.

DH is a programmer and I think he's worked with a grand total of 2 female coders in his 15 years or so. None in the past decade. There have women at his most recent places of work, but they have admin roles.

Thank you for posting that link, I enjoyed the article very much

It's always nice to read something from a person who is in a position of privilege and can see it, and thinks about it.

I'm in a particularly techy, male-dominated area of IT. I had a conversation with a male colleague today. We have a women's association which runs various personal development programmes - and anyone's welcome to join. "Oh, but I wouldn't feel right when it's all women," he said So you can't cope with a one-hour session, because you'd be in a minority? Imagine how I feel every day I go to work. This is exactly why we have and need a women's association.

I will be circulating a link to this article at work tomorrow.

The next time a man asks what they can do to aid feminism, I will point them in the direction of this article.

Or when someone says that women aren't in certain roles because, women are in some way lacking, because this article breaks down how powerful "having a face that fits" is and exactly how demoralising it can be when you don't have those advantages.

Buffy no, there's plenty of room. There might be one or two particular events where it could be an issue, but not for the majority. And also from other things he said - well, he clearly doesn't have much sense of irony, or recognise how he benefits from male privilege.

I don't quite agree with him though - and from his CV, he's interned a bit (in highly prestigious companies), but never actually worked in industry...

I virtually am that first paragraph (only poorer, so normal Uni, no modem for BBSes etc), and I would say that I actually experience less sexism (bias when employing etc.) in IT, and from men in IT than I have when in non-tech roles (eg. retail).

At Uni, I was one of 2 or 3 girls in most of my lectures (the only one doing my course, but we shared some modules with maths and electronics), my hobbies were generally male dominated, my work life has been generally male dominated, but the people I encounter day to day in these geeky work and hobbies, whilst being shocked to see me sometimes, and often romatically approached as the only available girl, I've never had a pushy attempt, I've never been told I shouldn't be doing something because I'm a girl, I've never been pushed into certain roles except by non-techies/geeks (eg. company manager expecting me, Head of Development, to take meeting minutes because I was the only woman present).

All I had was an interest in Computers, and a willingness to take a deep breath and walk into a room full of (perfectly nice, if odd) blokes (repeatedly.. throughout my learning and career). Far more nervewracking to walk into a bar full of normal men, who make jibes, inappropriately touch and can actually hurt you.

In my opinion, we've lost the girls far sooner than college and high school. We've lost them when the kids group around the console at Christmas, but the girls aren't taught to be assertive and demand their turn. Or when mediocre boys somehow have the confidence to carry on programming/playing games but the girls rate their skills as too low to pursue it - most programmers are mediocre and it's fine (most jobs are pretty mediocre too). I see it in my son - he's been taught to share too much, so now I need to teach him to push forward and demand his turn - girls need to be taught the same.

I'm saying that the micro-inequalities were far greater in non-techie jobs - yet women still do those so I don't think that that is the issue.

For example, working in Asda - general recruitment day, the women were automatically put down for tills, the men as shelf-stackers. Christmas parties where I literally had to hide from some male colleagues. Comments on my uniform or which areas I should work in, passed over for lateral transfers into more male dominated areas.

I've never had that as a programmer - colleagues once rebuffed stayed rebuffed, Christmas parties were fun (OK, geeky, but at least not 'dodge the harasser'), people assumed I was there to do a job and that I wouldn't have been employed if I couldn't (mind you I've worked with some really, really good people - I wonder if less confident people might find more reason to put others down)

Everyone in the geeky jobs was expected to do their job well, or be dismissed, and I didn't get that any more, or any differently to the men.

The only times I remember there were issues were in the more menial roles, eg. tech support when going out on the floor to work on non-techies' computers when the comments would start. As a programmer I don't have to do that, but I know that a couple of women stopped going out on the floor when employed as techs.

I do think that in the environments I've worked in, the people have been very sure of themselves and their competency, and I definitely think that makes a difference.

Gaming I do find quite unwelcoming - you're right - it is unpleasant to be in a room playing games where the only females are you, and the half-naked, male-fantasy women on the screen, and the banter that gets directed at you can be over the line too (although, generally not from my friends, but then they're my friends so I wouldn't expect it from them). Certainly I found the comments enough to put me off playing games that weren't that interesting anyway, but a good, addictive game I just turn the chat off and play for myself (curse you World of Warcraft and the hours I wasted playing that game)

I've been to various conferences in my time, and the industry ones and the gaming ones all have some very sexist elements (booth girls, talking to who I'm with rather than me), whereas the pure tech ones have been fine (I've been both attendee and speaker - and all people wanted to talk about was the subject matter)

I don't know what to do about it - patronising attempts to get more women into IT aren't going to help - I think they just emphasise the difference and give those people who want to an alternative to snide 'sleeping your way to the top' comments. Somehow girls just need to see IT as a valid and interesting career choice for them (or perhaps that the alternatives aren't any more interesting), and I think that needs to start as early as primary school, when they're forming their interests (as my parents did).

With gaming you just have to look at the way a Microsoft developer felt it was acceptable to say 'Relax, just let it happen, it'll be over soon' when beating a female colleague during a recent game demo to see how awful it is.

I was very pleased to see the shock on my DP's face that those words came out of the person's mouth, and the horror at it from other friends was encouraging too.

I will say that at least the OP's article realises that micro-sexism exists and can have an effect, so many other articles think that women don't go into IT because of the pizza/beer/nerd men in IT put them off - as if women only go into a career to find friends and a husband..

That article and the comments really shocked me and has convinced me that in some ways (just like the pink shit that we are always talking about) things are going backwards for women.

I am, I must stress a real old gimmer, which means DH is an old gimmer too. He entered the computer industry in the 1960s when computers were as big as a room, trained as a programmer and then became a systems analyst and systems designer before becoming a computer systems consultant.

When he was a programmer the majority of the programmers were, wait for it, women! And this was at a time when there were no off the shelf software packages. Everyone had to do their own shit. It was only when he became a systems analyst that men were in the majority and even then there was a good proportion of women and no discrimination.

Given that his generation were the pioneers of programming, systems and software design and equality was another decade at least down the line, you have to ask what the fuck is happening now that we are reading articles such as OP has listed and some of the comments it has produced.
Deeply worrying.

Buffy wonder whether by being obviusly successful in tech and passed muster you're on the "inside" if you like? Over the barricades and one of the boys.

That certainly does happen in some places. I've pulled male colleagues up on sexist comments in the past, and been told, "Oh, we don't mean you! You don't count, you're one of the lads!" Yes, nice that I'm accepted, but that still doesn't make your behaviour acceptable...

Chunky girls just need to see IT as a valid and interesting career choice for them

I agree - but it's not happening. The numbers for women studying CS at university has been falling since the 1980s, not rising. I think it does happen early, probably before secondary school. I think we need to be far better at making school children aware that there is a massive range of different roles in IT, with all sorts of different employers, and it involves many skills beyond "just" the techy ones - and even if you look at the technical skill sets, there's still loads of different types. But also, it can be a flexible, interesting job, and can be (not always) well-paid - you'd think it'd be ideal in a lot of ways.

grimble Given that his generation were the pioneers of programming, systems and software design and equality was another decade at least down the line, you have to ask what the fuck is happening now that we are reading articles such as OP has listed and some of the comments it has produced.

Gender Codes: Why Women Are Leaving Computing (ed. Thomas Misa) is interesting on this.

Love that article, it's great to hear someone acknowledge their privilege and how it's benefitted them.

I work in technology, and have never really experienced much in the way of overt sexism, and I don't think I've experienced too much in the way of unconscious sexism either. But I think that's perhaps the reason I've been successful. Maybe other women have experienced lots of things that make them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and have silently left the field (or never entered it in the first place!). Plus, I think a lot of the hidden sexism is difficult to see when you're the target of it; much easier to spot when you're on the outside.

Mostly, when you're in a role and have convinced your (male) work colleagues that you know what you're doing, they're happy to accept you. I've had loads of job recommendations, positive comments and been asked advice from male ex-colleagues. After all, the individual people themselves aren't (consciously) sexist. But it's the getting there in the first place, getting people to give you the experience and guidance, and convincing the people who don't know you.

Oh, I meant to add - it's a cultural thing, too, women in IT. The figures outside of USA/UK/Australia/Germany/Netherlands tend to be better - particularly in India & Asia.