Rather shocked that a woman sent these messages

[JacqueslePeacock]

I've just read that two people pleaded guilty to sending threatening, misogynistic messages to Caroline Criado-Perez in protest at her campaign to put a woman on our banknotes. (Guardian article here) I probably shouldn't be shocked, but couldn't help feeling a bit incredulous that one of the two was a young woman.

(It seems the Guardian couldn't quite get its head around it either, as the article refers to the woman's messages as "his" in paragraph 3!)

One thing I would be interested in (and I am sure there are stats somewhere) is why women seem to draw so much anger and so many violent threats when they campaign for something. Is that something that happens to men in the same numbers, or is it specifically a response that is more likely to occur towards women (and I am thinking of adults here, I think teenagers is a separate, complex issue of its own)?

Because that surely illuminates the discussion on whether there is a misogynistic element to what goes on?

I am not arguing for completeness of theory. I am asking why, whenever there is behaviour called into question, that there is only ever one go-to explanation on this board? Someone calls out that this woman is doing it 'to impress the men'. People join forces, nodding heads vigorously. No questioning, no evidence, just an assumption that that is how it is because....well, that is how it is. it's a bit like Christians and the God's will stance.

That's only partly what I'm getting at.

There's also the question why women wouldn't support a pro woman campaign.

Wasn't supposed to be, no. Maybe badly phrased. Let me try again. What alternatives are there to the possibility that this woman was carrying out her actions purely to impress men?

To impress misogynists of either sex.

Bullies like showing off. It's part of the package.

The only thing I could tell about this woman from the article that we are discussing is that she has 21 convictions, mostly for drunk and disorderly. This tells me that she has probably got a drink problem. People with a drink problem are likely to have behavioural issues, anger issues and problems controlling themselves and their outbursts.

Given this is the only evidence placed before us, isn't it the most likely explanation for her behaviour? Whatever political theories or philosophies we where to, whatever happened to Occam's razor?

ha - that's exactly what I came on to say, about Occam's razor. If it quacks like a misogynist, etc. A person can be a vicious drunk and a woman hater at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive. And feminists think it's ok to say someone is a misogynist if they say & do misogynist things. It is ok. What else have you to go on except a persons' words and actions?

The Sad Truths of Internet Trolls:

Trolls are immune to criticism and logical arguments. True trolls cannot be reasoned with, regardless of how sound your logical argument is.
Trolls do not feel remorse like you and me. They have sociopathic tendencies, and accordingly, they delight in other people having hurt feelings.
Trolls consider themselves separate from the social order.
Trolls do not abide by etiquette or the rules of common courtesy.
Trolls consider themselves above social responsibility.
Trolls gain energy by you insulting them.
Trolls gain energy when you get angry.
The only way to deal with a troll is to ignore him, or take away his ability to post online.

How Exactly Do Internet Trolls Abuse Others?

Internet trolls seek to be disruptive and hurtful by using any of the following techniques:
Trolls will post abusive and hurtful comments directed at a specific person (aka "flaming" another person)
Trolls will incite broad arguments and provoke angry responses by making controversial statements. (e.g. racism, religious intolerance, bigoted or elitist views, mysogyny, extreme political views)
Trolls will narcissistically dominate conversations, trying to make themselves the center of attention. (e.g. nonstop comments about themselves and their accomplishments; repeated self-centered statements and bragging)
Trolls will start many off-topic threads, seeking to derail users from the focus of an online community.

All sounds reasonable to me. Why did a woman post hateful messages to another woman? Because she was a troll. Does society hold women to a higher moral standard than it does men? It would seem that it does, yes, look at Fred and Rose West, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, the men are hated, yes, but the women were villified in a completely different way. Do women, even feminist women hold women to a higher moral code? Well, yes, sometimes, because we live within a society which treats women as other, we internalise that belief, and even though, as feminists, we are fighting against that (among other things), we still sometimes do it.

Occam's razor cuts both ways.

Dunno Arte. I find it interesting that some here think it's about impressing men. I've done the daftest things impressing my girl friends. One upping etc extending jokes and such. This seems far end of that but same. Or at least equally (!) possible.

It also seems the extreme end of sleb hating. Just the extreme end of hating Kate winslett etc for inflicting the world with a shocking Papp photo of (horrors) cellulite. Another foul women suffer of, if perhaps in media driven by men? Unsure. Maybe one feeds the other. Maybe some man was just clever enough to notice...?

Ultimately it's power. About shutting her up. Putting her down. Making the tweeter feel superior, better, liked, agreed with.

Thing is. You see that here, being t'internet. It's everywhere. What makes us so bloody angry?

Captchaos, your post is interesting. Try substituting troll with woman. It's quite bizarre....

Or man. Equality rules ok.

I don't get you Minnie. You can't compare slating a person is, man/woman with slating how they choose to behave - trolling.

I'm not suprised that women can act in sociopathic ways and that they can be hateful towards other women.

But it doesn't make logical sense does it, for a woman to send death threats to another women simply for wanting Austen on bank notes.
What is so threatening to her about it that she must threaten this woman so severely?

When men do it's easy for me to assume that they do it because they hate women and are scared of feminism. If a woman does it...does she want an easy victim to bully? Does she hate women - because that would mean she hates herself, or does she think she is somehow different than other female humans?

Somehow different I think

'A bloke with tits' kinda thing.

I am not arguing for completeness of theory. I am asking why, whenever there is behaviour called into question, that there is only ever one go-to explanation on this board?

Because feminism, by its nature, is more deeply invested in the myth of sisterhood compared to the wider female community.

'Myth of sisterhood'?? What the hell? Only an idiotic male who fears women could come out with such claptrap!

FWIW....I very much have an affinity with the sisterhood.....much more than with males! LONG LIVE WOMEN!!!

First off, the campaign was not about getting Austen on bank notes, it was about getting a woman on banknotes and Austen was merely the least offensive to the Bank of England compromise. Personally, I would rather have had Rosalind Franklin, but there you go.

DWH - the myth of sisterhood oh dear lord! Really? Way to utterly miss the point.

Briar - Does she hate women - because that would mean she hates herself, or does she think she is somehow different than other female humans?

Yes, I think the second thought is probably the correct one. As has been said before, women live within society, a lot of society is deeply misogynistic, so of course women internalise that. Along come pesky feminists, recklessly pointing out that the status quo sucks, and that we really need to do something about it all. Given the extreme fear reactions from some men, one should also expect the same fear reactions from those women who have internalised the prevailing culture. In some cases the fear provokes men to become abusive internet trolls, why should it not provoke the same reaction in women? The added bonus for some women is the proverbial pats on the head that they get from the male trolls, the approval they get from the sections of society which wants to retain the status quo, if that makes sense.

Minni - Try substituting troll with woman.

Try substituting troll with frying pan, it's equally bizarre, what's your point?

Sinistersal I was trying to personalise trolling. I find it very dissociative to use troll. Stops it being a person. A human. Means you read the headline as if a massive Ogre is doing it. Not say Louise Smith from Pinner or whatever. I found reading the trolling description just very strange when I changed it. Wondered if anyone else did too.

Bit like that with peado discussions on here sometimes. It's always other. Other strangers, other men, a monster. When usually it's dave, the kids uncle or something really normal.

Was it the act of a couple of people with mental issues?

That is incredibly insulting to anyone (including me) with mental health issues.