Rather shocked that a woman sent these messages

[JacqueslePeacock]

I've just read that two people pleaded guilty to sending threatening, misogynistic messages to Caroline Criado-Perez in protest at her campaign to put a woman on our banknotes. (Guardian article here) I probably shouldn't be shocked, but couldn't help feeling a bit incredulous that one of the two was a young woman.

(It seems the Guardian couldn't quite get its head around it either, as the article refers to the woman's messages as "his" in paragraph 3!)

I agree completely with Scallops that it's about "being in with the boys", actually.

Really? Based on what? Perhaps it's more to do that she has 21 previous convictions, mostly for d&d, and perhaps she has ongoing addiction and mental problems. Again, it doesn't absolve her, but perhaps, just perhaps, she needs help?

I don't deny she needs help. In fact, I'm certain of it.

I was more trying to suggest that I think a desire to fit in with men's aggression against women could be a key motivating factor for impressionable young women to behave in this way.

Sorry Artetas my understand of what constitutes rape is wrong. I had wrongly assumed that 'assault by penetration' would be classed as rape because surly most people would think trigger warning that having say bottle forced into a vagina/anus would be raping someone.

In fact I think it's shit that it doesn't fall under rape.

I really want to get more into feminist discussion but it feels like at every turn I'm blocked by my lack of the correct language.

No problem hazchem.

The desire to shoehorn in a root male cause to the actions of a woman who, as far as we are aware, was acting alone, sounds a bit desperate Jacques. Do women never, ever have agency for their actions? You might want it to be this way, but there is no evidence.

Hazchem, sexual assault can carry as significant a penalty as rape.

Absolutely shocked here too.

IIRC the most abusive messages were out of the blue and just got worse and worse. They were pure hatred. Random strangers on Twitter were going to rape, anally rape, kill, torture and anything else you can think of Ms Criado-Perez purely and simply because she'd had the temerity to campaign to have a woman on a bank note after Elizabeth Fry is removed.

It was not part of an ongoing exchange. Not 'heat of the moment' nastiness. Publishing someone's admittedly incorrect address on the web and inviting people to go round and do unspeakable things to someone is beyond awful.

The posters themselves were very clear they were doing it to silence a woman who had got too big for her boots. There was a lot of discussion then about how some sections of the public truly hate women, especially women who stand up to be counted. Ms Criado-Perez still regulary receives threatening tweets. From both women and men.

I beleive Isabella Sorely told her that she had just come out of prison, but would happily do more time for her and wanted to see her berried (sic), along with a hashtag of 10feetunder amongst other things. Nice try at a derail into why threatening rape makes no sense though and excusing this behaviour as being heat of the moment. Ime, heat of the moment doesn't grind on and on for days.

I'm pleased for Ms Criado Perez. Slightly shocked that a woman would issue threats like this, but I hope this is the start of a shutdown of online bullying against anybody promoting feminist principles. What a pity the world hasn't really moved on since this article by Laurie Penny which was discussed on here at the time. Hopefully this case will make misogynists pause before issuing their threats in future.

I agree completely with Scallops that it's about "being in with the boys", actually.

But why would 'the boys' even be against it? While I have seen the effect you describe (and the reverse) I rather get the idea its either a medical issue or its a historical personal axe to grind, one that has little to do with the subject at hand and everything to do with the person.

It's sad that only two of the tweeters have been prosecuted.

Interesting thread. I am puzzled. Women are capabable of murder. Women would certainly be capable of conspiring to rape or sexual assault as described on here. I'm sad of that but being human I consider we are all capabable just that most choose not to. I think on balance I was more shocked women were involved in the nursery sexual assaults on babies in the press in last few years tbh.

I'm glad it's been followed up and publicised.

It's a pity that some people know their opinion before looking at the circumstances. Derailing indeed.

Would those who contend that this woman was driven to her actions by the patriarchy (i.e. her wish to please men and denigrate women) advocate separate sentencing guidelines for men and women? Perhaps women under such oppressive influence are not totally responsible for their actions, or at least there are mitigating circumstances.

Also, did anyone here the news report on Childline this morning? Big increases in children reporting cyber bullying, abusive messages, discussions on self harm and suicide. Does that fit in with any of the suggested motives?

I also assumed it was an attempt at being "in with the boys", although why any woman would want the approval of men like that is beyond me.

It's a pity that not more of the abusive tweeters were named.

Why are people shocked to learn that a woman can be capable of such actions? Also, if she is, that it must be through a desire to be 'one of the boys'.

we all live in the same sexist, misogynist culture. Within that context, some do better than others, notably men have 'privilege' that women don't. Some women find they get an easier time by placating men and getting access to some male privilege, even to the disadvantage of women as a group eg (some would argue) strippers. They take on the views and opinions of the dominant group - similar to Black people damaging their skin with lighteners.
that needs editing, but I'm knackered. hope it makes kind of sense

It 'makes sense' as in it can be read as a theory. How do you know when this theory is relevant to an action, and when it is not? Or is it always true, for any action in any scenario? Can any other possible cause of this woman's actions therefore be discounted? If so, back to my earlier question - would anyone advocate separate sentencing guidelines for women, given their oppression?

There are more cases still ongoing - these two aren't the only ones being investigated for the abuse; they were probably just the easiest to prosecute. (CCP refers in her statement to other cases ongoing which limits what she can say about the issue.)

Thanks, Tunip.

Atretas - No, not seperate sentencing guidelines. But certainly any judge worth anything would factor in relevent details of a persons life before sentencing. These would certainly include suffering acts of oppression. Oppression is not uniform, obviously, and there is more than one type.

I suppose another reason would be that some women just dislike women.

There is always going to be a lot of bullying and negative behaviour on the Internet, because nobody is capable of behaving perfectly, not being misled, able to understand every nuance of a situation and be selfless in real life, so why should they be that capable online? The issue is that even with our ability to mess up, there is a line that most people don't cross in real life, so know not to cross virtually - bringing someone else's children into things, contacting an employer, colleagues or workplace to damage someone else's career, doxxing, issuing threats of violence and so on. Doing any of those things suggests a person has gone well beyond normal boundaries of what is socially or ethically acceptable and needs either support or police investigation depending on what they've done. I don't think it is something special about the Internet.

Assuming that the OP is a feminist, are some feminists guilty of holding unreal expectations for women - some expectation that they are more saintly and virtuous than men?

No.

It's more like wondering why women can hate & denigrate themselves. A different dynamic to hating someone else.

But men can. Men can slaughter each other, maim, torture, torment and threaten. That is a given, I think. So why not women? They are human too.