why are childlesd women treated so badly?

[midnight100]

I am childless and before you think I'm a child hater or something, I love kids, have worked with kids as and really want to have children as soon as I meet the right person.
As a childless women I fell like I don't matter and am not a real women, everything is about mothers, they get so much regonition. They should get regonition, but i feel like other people don't get enough regonition like carers because of all the regonition, like that Sma advert , you're doing great and that asda advent we had last year with the mum doing Lindsay Christmas. Wow thanks asda its such a relief to no as a childless single women there's nothing I need to do for Christmas.

I think with adverts, it's more a case that a significant majority of women will have children so it's not that childless women are less valued but they are less recognised because they are in the minority and companies need to cater to their dominant customer base, which they will have identified largely due to their own demographic data generated by the loyalty cards. I have had children later in life and before I had them, I didn't feel excluded as "a childless woman". I recognised that sometimes adverts were directed at mothers and I wasn't a mother, but I didn't take it as a dig.

The great hunt, I am not attacking women with children and I have not decide to not have kids, I haven't yet, read my post

I think society can be judgemental and unpleasant towards childless women in a slightly different way from the way it's judgemental and unpleasant to women with children, but my personal impression is that, all other things being equal, you get more shit flung at you for having children than not. So mini's posts make a huge amount of sense to me.

I do think there are some comments on MN that are a bit dodgy about childless women, and never about childless men, though - less than in real life, but still not perfect.

But then, I suspect part of the reason I don't feel excluded is I am thick-skinned about jumping into a debate, throwing in the odd 'well, I don't have kids but ...' and discussing it all. And people are generally quite polite. Sometimes I'm sure they're biting back a response of 'you idiot childless woman, why are you chatting to me about feminist theories of childcare, I've lived this?', but often I think they just don't much care.

Nah, we're all happy to hear from you LRD because you listen and think and reflect.

OP you sound resentful that women are portrayed as mothers. 4 out of 5 women are mothers and they are the target market for many products. Are you also annoyed that ugly fat women are being ignored by advertisers, because after all they wear perfume too and they never appear as perfume wearers in the ads.

The phrase "hardest job in the world" is patriarchy's way of saying "never mind mothers, we're not going to pay you for your work or give you any respect or social status for it, but here's a pat on the head which doesn't cost us anything and will ensure that you carry on doing the grunt work we don't want to do so we can carry on doing the more enjoyable, high status, paid work."

FWIW women who don't become mothers earn on average more than women who do.

Basil, you rock.

"Well mothers do get a lot of regonition, childless women still run a home like mothers but it's like they don't."

Umm, not really. There is no comparison. If there is no meal, you either microwave something or pop our to the local restaurant. If there are no Christmas decorations up, so what? You just give it a miss for one year. The life I lead now with two small children bears no comparison to the one before we had children. At 5-6PM there HAS to be two meals on the table. At 7-7-45PM, there HAS to be a bath run and bedtime stories read. Then we can enjoy the evening as grown ups, minus the drinking and going out (unless we get a rare and expensive baby sitter).

I do think that there is a lot of whingeing by people in general about 'normal' life. People have families and families need looking after. Of course, in one sense it is hard work, in that a lot needs to be done. On the other hand, it is (almost) impossible to be sacked from parenthood and your clients (aka children) nearly always give fab annual reviews. In the milieu in which I exist, men and women both work hard with the exception of a few mainly women SAH parents who have school aged children and lots of domestic help. They have a great time.

Child free women are not buying tubs of formula milk so of course the sma advert was aimed at mothers. Should be aimed at both parents in an ideal world.

the Asda advert was steotypical and sexist. However their target market at christmas is generally mothers who, even though it should be equal, do most of the food shopping for Christmas. Before having kids, a higher proportion of people spend Xmas visiting their parents so don't do as much shopping as families with children. Advertising is designed to make money. If adverts make you feel bad about your choices then i suggest doing as i do and avoid watching them.

I used to have a friend who used the "when you've got kids" line all the time.

I remember she mentioned once that she and her DH didn't eat dinner till 9pm. I expressed the opinion that I couldn't wait that long for my dinner. I was informed that "when you've got kids you just have to " . . . before mentioning that she had a sandwich at 5pm to keep her going - so not exactly going hungry all that time!

It got to the point that it felt like her stock response to any opinion I dared to utter.

"I'm tired."
"Oh well when you've got kids. . ."

"I don't like baked beans"
"Oh well when you've got kids . . ."

When the awful thing at Dublane happened, the Queen put out a statement which said that "like every mother" she had been really distressed by it. I felt angry as it sounded as if she was saying that parents would be more upset than non-parents, as if the childless were heartless as well.

I do appreciate that when things like that happen your imagination makes you think, what if it was my children? But you still don't have the monopoly in being upset at a terrible event just because you have had children yourself.

I really hate the mawkish family adverts aimed at women. The SMa one particularly as it implies all women are thinking their doing a crap job.

In terms of recognition out and about I feel like since having DD (3 months) I am invisible to people but particularly men. I don't mean in terms of being attractive but basic politeness. I am really aware if not getting in people's way but feel like people just blank me when i let them pass when previously they would have said thanks, for example. On the other hand older ladies love talking to me now!

Also yy to the 'good dad' stuff!!

Santa

Thanks basil. But I think if people genuinely were excluding childless women, I'd know about it and no amount of reflecting would help.

I recognize what Balloon says happening, but I think that is partly people taking on board what basil described (and I think that was brilliant too), about how society praises mothers in order to make them do the shitwork. Isn't that meant to be a well-known coping mechanism, to internalise what people say about you?

But ... I don't know anything about the OP's situation, and I think this is an interesting debate so there is absolutely no need for her to justify it at all if she doesn't want to - but OP, I know a lot of women, even those who are 'childless by choice' in that they're not currently TTC, may have struggled in the past. I think the horrible phrase 'when you have children' can be quite cutting in that situation. If that's you, I do sympathise, because I do think that can be an unintentional source of hurt on MN and in RL.

I think the "when you have children" thing is insecure people (usually women) grabbing whichever method they can, to big themselves up.

Men have other outlets which they can big themselves up with - their football team winning, other obscure manly things of which I know nothing and care less - and people grab whatever lever they can, to get one over on someone else if they're that way inclined.

My mum still does this to my aunt, who is 85. Aunt & Uncle v. set in their ways, will only come visiting on certain days etc. "You'd think they had loads of children to see to" is always her comment - it's her way of putting my aunt down and bigging herself up - she's genuinely busy, she's got all these kids (none of whom get on with her, but hey, main thing is she's a mother and no matter how badly she did it, that means she's got one over on Aunt, right?)

This says more about them personally, than it does about the genuine status of mothers in society. It's a way of pitting women against women - have children and be treated like shit, or don't have children and be treated like unnatural shit. Either way, shit on each other and meanwhile men continue to hold most of the power and no-one's interested in their fatherhood status.

I agree about the "when you have children" I think it could be to do with the way in which we are all compelled unconsciously to perpetuate the myth, mothers work hard, mothers are saints, mothers perform important roles lalalal........ its a desperation to believe that somehow its destiny even though its a shit destination. Recognition we seldom get, but strive for through continued reference to our own martyrdom. Some women I have known really do believe that they have a special status even whilst they are playing the martyr. Actually I think I might be guilty of this to some degree. Far better to think its the hardest job in the world and only I and few million others are up to this monumental challenge, because you then feel that the sacrifices are for some good. Its a bit masochistic but haven't women been socialised to enjoy and seek out their own subjugation.

Having children is hard work and sacrifices are made usually by women but I am not certain that it has always been this way or need be. The fact that women are martyred to the cause allows men off the hook.

Balloonsayer I agree, but when you're are childless it can hurt a lot, it like saying you don't understand full time responsibility, but I do, I looked after my grandad in his 90s until he died, ans if you I'm tired, some women with children say, you think you're tired wait till you have kids I'm exhausted. I've been bedridden with m.e., I think I know what it tells like to be exhausted, its just all rediculous

Larrygrylls, what you've said is a prime example of what I am takling about. So because I'm childless I can just microwave something, you could just give your kids a ready meal, so because I'm childless I'll be satisfied with a ready meal and because you have kids you have to cook dinner. Everybody needs to have a evening meal, this is what I mean about mothers are so busy and childless women are not bullshit. So because you have responsibilitys(kids) you have to cook ans I don't. I can have a ready meal because I have no responbilitys. And also you are assuming that because I'm am childless I have not have any responibiltys, well let me tell I cared for mum and grandad and by your logic I had to cook, I couldn't possibly give them a ready meal. How ridiculous

This is exactly what I'm talking about person assuming I have had no responsibility s because i am childless

Balloon I mean feels not tells sorry

Larrygrlls, so because you've given birth you have to put up Christmas decorations. Hmm

"So because I'm childless I can just microwave something, you could just give your kids a ready meal, so because I'm childless I'll be satisfied with a ready meal and because you have kids you have to cook dinner".

I don't have to cook dinner for me, I have to cook dinner for them. And before I had children, a ready meal was always an option. Some of them are very satisfying. And everyone does NOT have to have an evening meal. I used to often have a big lunch at work and pita and tarama of an eve.

If you are a full time carer, it is just like having children, people entirely depend on you. If you were a carer and now are not, you should appreciate the difference between the two states of being.

To be honest, I agree with some of what you say. Before I had children, people used to condescend to me in the same way about not knowing what children were like etc. Now that I have them, I take some of their point but not all. Most of what I thought then, I still think now.

But, why let it get to you? Everyone is different and you don't have to befriend people who are rude to you. Just ignore them.

It all childless women dont have to do anything, they have loads of free time blah blah and mums do everything. No I may be childless but i still have responbilitys, I'm still busy , I still get tired, I still a human being, I still mater

FYI, OP, larry is a guy so hasn't given birth.

I agree it's not helpful if parents are saying to you, "well, you can't be tired if you've never had kids." etc - that's rude and dismissive.

Larrygrlls, I'm sorry is you're unhappy with your life with kids, but didn't you think about what yourvevening routine would be like before you had kids, yeah and sorry if you can't get out in the evening because of babysitters, but let let me assure it is also hard get care for a elderly person

I have no kids and I can honestly say that I have loads less drudgery to get through than my friends and colleagues with kids... but surely a lot of the problem is that they are expected (by society and lots of individuals) to do all/most of what I've seen described on these boards as "wifework".

I'm not sure a competition to be equally hard-done-by is that helpful to anyone, surely it's important that men and women should bear the workload equally.

I hardly ever post on here but do a lot of lurking and taking in the information and arguments.. and I have to say I have no sense of exclusion as a non-mum especially on the FWR boards. I don't get the sense that anyone on here is defining themselves as "mums" - therefore there's no way for me to be excluded on that basis. I'm a woman - so I'm included here, if that makes sense.

Sorry Larry, I didn't realise you were a man. But what you said was a bit ridiculous, if you've got kids you have to cook, no you don't, you can make a choice about dinner like everybody else

Midnight,

I am very happy with my life. I was also very happy with my life the many years that I was single with no children. I don't believe in "the grass is greener". I acknowledged that being a carer is equivalent to being a parent in my last post.

I am not really sure of your point. Advertising is going to be targeted at the appropriate demographic. The aim is to make money, not take personal pot shots. And if enough of the target demographic (women with children) disliked mawkish ads, then the companies would be shooting themselves in the foot. To be honest, think of all the luxury "no kids" hotels, the restaurants where children are not really welcome, the club scene etc etc. Singletons are well catered for, too.

I think that society can be awful to women without children. They get bullied and portrayed as selfish, lonely, etc.

Mothers, on the other hand, have their basic decision to have children validated (though god forbid you have too few or too many) but at every turn are confronted by stereotypes, martyrs (see the Asda ad) and the general impression that they are doing a crap job. They also confront the harsh realities that whilst society pays lip service to their choice, it is generally set up for men (and, by extension, to women who either do not yet, or do not, have children).

I am generally a big resister of the 'when you have children/if you had children' school of behaviour. However, I would agree that as an adult female who either lives alone or with a vaguely normal male partner you do not 'run a home'. Or at least you shouldn't be unless your partner appears to be living in the 1950s. One of the biggest adjustments for professional women who have kids can be the reality that the equality in their relationship before kids takes a nose dive just as the workload grows exponentially.