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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why women?

11 replies

GeorgianMumto5 · 29/11/2013 14:09

I daresay this has been asked before on here, but why is it women who are dumped on? I know men are too, but on a general basis, why do women come in for so much? It appears to be almost universal, so presumably it goes beyond just culture. Why does having a vagina make us more vulnerable?

OP posts:
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 29/11/2013 14:32

I think being the ones who get pregnant makes us vulnerable, apart from anything else.
There's lots of theories but I think it's enough to be able to see it happening and fight against it. Knowing why won't stop it, in itself, I don't think.

GeorgianMumto5 · 29/11/2013 14:34

So it could be partly biological?

OP posts:
BasilBabyEater · 29/11/2013 14:37

What sort of dumping on are you talking about?

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 29/11/2013 14:44

The problem is it's been happening for so long that nobody really knows.

Some people think it's because women have "the power" to recreate and long ago before humankind realised how sex worked, the men were afraid of that power so they started to oppress women out of fear.

Other people think it's just because men are generally bigger and stronger physically so it was easier for them to oppress us rather than the other way around.

Some people think it's just the true place and that's how it's always been. Hmm

I am sure there are other theories out there but the thing that strikes me about the "it's always been this way - women are built to nurture children and men are built to kill things" is that it's still a social concept that childrearing and "women's work" is less important - if men and women started off with different but equally important roles, then it could just as easily have evolved that women are the "head" of the family, the work of the home considered more important and going out to seek food/money/etc was pathetic slave labour that nobody would do if they could get away with it (ie, how traditionally "women's work" is seen now) - but it didn't, did it? In almost every culture in the world men are dominant.

Blistory · 29/11/2013 18:27

I don't know what started it but I can see why it continues.

Human nature, imo, looks to firstly protect your own, then your outer circle and only then does it look beyond. So if you accept that there is an inherent selfishness in human nature, it makes sense that those in power hold on to it. And I don't think that selfishness is necessarily a negative in that regard. If power brings protection, then it would kind of be daft to give it up.

We bind ourselves quite willingly or unwittingly in society in order to have protection but in order to do so, give up a degree of freedom and power and in doing so, afford more power to those in charge, trusting that they will abide by the terms of that social contract.

So even historically when women were considered legally as less than men, there was an obligation on men to provide them with support in return. So women would enter marriage for the protection of men and their ability to provide and men in return would gain an heir. When you look at a more modern society and the way that we compete for resources, physical strength isn't such an advantage. So women don't need protection (assuming of course, that they once ever did) as they're now able to obtain food, shelter themselves, protect themselves.

So women want to renegotiate the social contract but that involves either overthrowing men, who don't want to give up their power or advantages, or persuading men that working together and equally will result in gains for all. The reality is that for a lot of men, there wouldn't be any gains but nor would there be any losses so we're back to the selfish element but now in a negative sense.

I don't think that men want to come to the table to have the discussion sadly but I do think that the more women insist on the discussion, the more likely it is to happen but it's a slow process.

God, that was boring but I've typed it now so may as well hit post.

GeorgianMumto5 · 29/11/2013 19:51

Grin It's OK - I stayed the course and would go so far as to say, 'Interesting...'

'Dump on'...that wasn't very clear, sorry. I meant the many ways in which women are oppressed, marginalised, terrorised, abused, under-represented, mistreated, ignored, belittled, excluded...etc.

OP posts:
NiceTabard · 01/12/2013 00:21

Blistory I don't see that marriage historically has resulted in protection (especially) or even being provided for across the board? Men have caused damage to their wives since time immemorial and being provided for was dependent on the man actually wanting to share what they had, and him having anything in the first place.

I will be the first to admit I'm not all that on history but I can't see any genuine advantage to women marrying, for the majority of women, either now or in the past. I thought marriage was all to do with religion / combining resources for families TBH and the women were chattel (as they still are in some parts of the world).

BasilBabyEater · 01/12/2013 20:26

Agree, deep down in that assumption that women needed protection from men, is the idea that they had any choice. Who is to say that if there hadn't been compulsory heterosexuality, women wouldn't have chosen to protect themselves from the violence of men by living with each other, rather than with one of these potentially violent people?

whatdoesittake48 · 02/12/2013 15:30

Interestingly, the majority of divorces are instigated by women. We may get "dumped on" but we do the "dumping". men think that they can dump on us as much as they like and then can't understand when they receive the divorce papers in the post.

BasilBabyEater · 02/12/2013 17:59

Yes and let's remind ourselves of the hierarchy of happiness

1 Married men
2 Single women
3 Married women
4 Single men

Which tells us that marriage is much better for men, than it is for women.

NiceTabard · 02/12/2013 19:53

I wonder what the stats are for couple break-up where the couple are not married. I have no idea TBH but I read on here a lot about men who have just fucked off and disregarded all their obligations re children etc. Would be interesting to see what the picture is across the board.

Also if women are married then they are entitled to support part of property etc normally, if they are not married then it's just support for the children as I understand it and that can be hard to get paid out. Is it possible that where there is a marriage women have more protection and so are more able to instigate a separation and conversely usually there is more reason for a man not to leave? Whereas when the man has minimal financial penalty the women find it very hard to leave and the men do it more easily? Like I say I don't know but just putting it out there Smile

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