Radical Feminism

[Grennie]

I see so many myths about radical feminism. So what does radical feminism mean to you?

And that is fine beach. We should welcome that. But it is not lesbianism

If we accept that sexuality isn't fixed at birth but has fluidity and can be influenced by conditioning, (I'm not convinced), doesn't that give a degree of legitimacy to Christians who talk about "curing homosexuality" and who claim that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that can be altered.

Because I've never given that nonsense the time of day!

Yes it does.
Personally I think sexuality is formed when we are still young children. I think most people are bi though. But many of them are educated into being het. So yes they can become lesbian or gay.

But it is clear some women are lesbian or het even if they don't want to be.

It only gives legitimacy to those bigots, if you consider homosexuality and lesbianism to be undesirable.

I personally couldn't give a toss if someone is a lesbian because she chose it as a political choice, as a lifestyle choice or because she was born that way - I don't think being "born that way" is a particularly convincing argument tbh, it strikes me as being a bit begging and diffident. "I was born that way so can't help it, so please accept me" strikes me as starting from the premise that society has the right to object to your sexual orientation if you've actively chosen it rather than had no choice in the matter. AFAIC my starting point would be fuck it, it's irrelevant if your sexuality is a lifestyle choice or no choice at all, Christian bigots can fuck off.

I think sexuality is on a continuum and some people are more fixed in one place than others. I came across someone recently who had a lesbian relationship for years, lived with someone for 24 years with whom she split up a couple of years ago and has just taken up with a man for the first time since she was a teenager. She said that she probably wouldn't bother with any lesbian relationships ever again as she only ever fancied her lesbian partner, but no other women, whereas actually she fancies quite a few men now that she's got into this heterosexuality lark. I thought that was quite interesting, how someone's sexuality can adapt to a specific person they love.

Agreed basil. I have also spoken to lesbians who say being a lesbian was as much a choice as breathing.

BBE, I agree with you to an extent. I don't care what people are. I think it's a shame when people feel forced into a choice that isn't their true desire, be it a het woman living as a lesbian due to her feminist position, or a gay man marrying because it's "the done thing".

But I've always opposed Christian bigots on 2 fronts, firstly that there's no problem in being gay anyway, and secondly because it isn't changeable or curable.

But you have to remember that the gay people in question are Christian, which is why they fall under the influence of these bigots. If it's true that they can be "cured" of their homosexuality, and due to their religion, they want to be cured, then it's fair enough.

Personally, I don't think sexuality is fluid or changeable. You are what you are. You were born that way. I think believing you can change and going thru treatment to change is not going to end happily, and is not good for your mental health.

Well of course the woman I came across (who was in a happy lesbian relationship for 24 years and is now dating men) would be held up by those christians as proof that homosexuality is curable.

She's also proof of course, that heterosexuality is curable, because if it can happen that way round it can happen the other. But I don't suppose they'd consider that angle.

I know lots of women who were married and have become lesbians. It doesn't mean they didn't think theywere het when tthey were married.

I once read that the majority of bisexual women end up in relationships with men, and the majority of bisexual men also end up in relationships with men.

I wonder if that's driven by fertility?

Or by patriarchy? Who would choose to be with a second class citizen?

Hadn't thought of that, Grennie.

Mmnnnn...not sure about that Grennie. It seems more and more women are instigating divorce or choosing to not be with men, and many of them instead want to be with women. I think if we consider power dynamics anyway, of those men who DO think about women as second class (not sure many of them do TBH) then many of them would find this desirable....in that THEY would be the powerful one in the relationship.

You could also question why women (or men for that matter) would want to be with men when so many of them are downright horrible and commit most violence and most crimes. But you can't help who you connect with. Like me....I FAR prefer women's company to men's (out of the people I have known) and dislike/distrust men as a class...yet I LOVE my husband and he is my best friend.

True split. But I do think you do have control over who you fall for. So if for example you met a man that you totally clicked with, but after a month began to see huge red flags, wouldn't you walk away?

Split I feel the same way about men

Split - The fact that women who prefer being with other women, but still choose a man to partner with, is heteronormativity in action. It is no accident that so many women partner with men, even if all they can find are horrible abusive men. We are taught from girlhood that being partnered with a man is something we need to achieve if we want to be happy and normal.

Grennie, it could be actual heterosexuality in action.

A woman may enjoy the company of other women over men, but not in the bedroom, where only a man will do. Because she is what she is, straight. No because of heteronormativity, or the patriarchy, but just because that's what she wants.

Only if you think we are born Het.

I guess I do think that. We are born gay, straight, or bi. With most being straight.

In years to come, it will be interesting to see how the daughters of lesbian couples turn out. My guess is that the vast majority will be straight.

Research shows that the vast majority turn out to be Het. But children of lesbian parents can still be educated into heterosexuality.

I talk to so many older Het women who "confess" that they have had a major crush on a friend in the past. It really made me question whether the majority of women really are Het.

What do you mean by educated? In Russia, there are issues with gay parents because some people think that might promote homosexuality. Do you think children can be educated because that is a slippery slope. They can pretend to fit in as people have done but I don't think you can teach it.

Orlando Wolf, not just in Russia. I think it's an argument trotted out over here too, that kids can "catch gayness" from the same sex couple bringing them up.

Worth remembering that the vast majority of gay men and women had heterosexual parents!! And heterosexual siblings. If you can't catch gayness, then you can't catch heterosexuality, from the patriarchy or anyone else.

Children are educated into heterosexuality from toddlers. They are presented with the idea that being Het is the normal situation, from being a young child they get asked about boyfriends if a girl, or vice versa, girls get presented with the idea of marriage and a wedding dress in films, TV shows, books and toys, etc etc.

Children, and especially girls, are taught by media, and other adults, that girls grow up to get married to a man, and usually have children. That is how they are educated into being Het. That is why lesbian teenagers can have enormous difficulty coming to terms with being lesbian. Because they were brought up to think that of course they would be Het.

I can understand the appeal of the simplistic 'born that way' view of sexuality - not least because it makes it easier to describe homophobia as an analog of racism - but I think sexuality is probably formed from a complex combination of multiple factors like genetics, hormone exposure and experiences in early childhood. And no, this doesn't legitimise people who say they can cure homosexuality, because all the evidence so far suggests that however your sexuality is formed, it's basically impossible to change what turns you on. Otherwise we'd be able to cure true paedophiles.

I have often wondered whether the apparent greater fluidity of women's sexuality is at least something to do with the way we are conditioned to look at women's bodies under patriarchy - we are presented with women's-bodies-as-desirable-objects ALL the fricking time, and I wonder if a lifetime of that conditioning does play some part in some women identifying as bi or lesbian. I don't see how you can rule that out, anyway.

Can I also just say - I have never, ever seen any Christian organisation in the UK claim that they can 'cure' homosexuality. It sounds to me like you are describing something you have seen on TV in a doc about the US.

I agree that heterosexuality is normalized. In the same way people are conditioned. I am sure there are people who supress it. But I do not think you can change who you are attracted to. Or who you are. But society can force you to hide it.

"I have often wondered whether the apparent greater fluidity of women's sexuality is at least something to do with the way we are conditioned to look at women's bodies under patriarchy"

V interesting point, Phyllis, I had never thought of this.

I have never felt I have an intrinsic sexuality... I'm sure my 'vaguely heterosexual' orientation is the result of social conditioning. I know I'm in a minority though.