Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radical Feminism

184 replies

Grennie · 08/11/2013 13:07

I see so many myths about radical feminism. So what does radical feminism mean to you?

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 10:09

The political lesbianism concept probably does seem bonkers to many people - probably because we are so used to thinking about things in terms of patriarchal heteronormativity.

Political lesbianism is about examining compulsory heterosexuality and exploring an alternative. IMO it is a lot like feminist objections to mandatory PIV - another notion that seems a bit bonkers when you first encounter it, but which makes a whole lot of sense when you think outside of standard patriarchal framing of the subject.

Political lesbianism is about women refusing to do wifework and investing their time and energy in furthering the endeavours of women. It is actually a revolutionary concept if you think about it.

Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence Adrienne Rich

Of course it may not be for everyone, but I think dismissing it as bonkers comes from patriarchal socialization.

curlew · 09/11/2013 10:17

When I was a young woman, "political lesbianism" was definitely a thing. I do sometimes think that young women nowadays have no idea how radical an idea it was in the 70s for women to live fulfilled lives separate from men. It's pretty radical now!

I would love every woman under 30 to read The Women's Room. Dated, but eye opening.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 10:31

Patriarchal heteronormativity socializes people to not examine their individual sexuality either as to how they experience intimacy, or, as to how they form relationships. This socialization process could be analysed as a lie, a political structure, and certainly a pillar of female oppression.

We start socializing little girls from the minute they are born that what they want from life is a relationship with a man and children ( the concept explored by Rich of the "institution of motherhood").

Political lesbianism challenges that socialization process - which seems very sensible to me and not bonkers at all. To NOT question it seems crazy to me.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 10:53

And it isn't about not being a "traitor to the cause". Or denying one's sexuality. It is about looking the status quo and violence against women and the exploitation of women's work and reproductive capacities square in the face and realising that it is possible to refuse to live as you have been told you must.

I was talking to a group of women the other day about how if I were not to be with my DH (for reasons of divorce, death, etc), that I didn't think I would bother to be in an intimate relationship with a man again. We had a really interesting discussion about the advantages of women living without a man in their lives and there was much agreement about how interesting it could be to step out of prescribed heteronormativity. These were women in their 40s who were all mothers and had lived as straight all their lives. None of them identify as radical feminists (I'm not sure they even know what radical feminism is) and yet here we were discussing a revolutionary radical feminist concept and finding much to agree with it. We never mentioned the words lesbian, political, feminist or separatism - yet that was what we were discussing. We just weren't calling it that.

A lot of women's real life lived experiences show political lesbianism to not be quite so "out there" as you might think.

FairPhyllis · 09/11/2013 12:24

I think I've also seen 'political lesbianism' being talked about in a way that simply meant abstaining from intimate relationships with men, without reference to whether you then form sexual relationships with other women. Which would not be a bonkers thing to choose given the compromises, wifework etc in most heterosexual relationships.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 15:10

Yes, exactly FairPhyllis.

I think people tend to think about lesbianism as being the female quivalent to male homosexuality (because of course we think in male terms with male being the benchmark for everything else) and therefore people have an idea of lesbianism which is not the actual female experience, particularly the political aspect.

Again Adrienne Rich is good on this and when you read her work, the concept of the spectrum of lesbianism makes perfect sense.

For example women's refuges would be considered an example of political lesbianism in action - women only spaces designed to look after the best interests of women and children and to protect them from male violence. There doesn't have to be an erotic or sexual element. Seen like that, political lesbianism becomes immensely powerful for women (all the more reason for it to painted as deviant bonkers sexual lying....).

From the Rich link I gave above:

Lesbians have historically been deprived of a political existence through "inclusion" as female versions of male homosexuality. To equate lesbian existence with male homosexuality because each is stigmatized is to deny and erase female reality once again To separate those women stigmatized as "homosexual" or "gay" from the complex continuum of female resistance to enslavement, and attach them to a male pattern, is to falsify our history Part of the history of lesbian existence is, obviously, to be found where lesbians, lacking a coherent female community, have shared a kind of social life and common cause with homosexual men But this has to be seen against the differences women's lack of economic and cultural privilege relative to men; qualitative differences in female and male relationships, for example, the prevalence of anonymous sex and the justification of pederasty among male homosexuals, the pronounced ageism in male homosexual standards of sexual attractiveness, and so forth In defining and describing lesbian existence I would hope to move toward a dissociation of lesbian from male homosexual values and allegiances I perceive the lesbian experience as being, like motherhood, a profoundly female experience, with particular oppressions, meanings, and potentialities we cannot comprehend as long as we simply bracket it with other sexually stigmatized existences just as the term parenting serves to conceal the particular and significant reality of being a parent who is actually a mother, the term gay serves the purpose of blurring the very outlines we need to discern, which are of crucial value for feminism and for the freedom of women as a group.

SauceForTheGander · 09/11/2013 15:39

This is an interesting thread. I was recently described as rad fem because I was wearing a No more page 3 t shirt. I thought that was hilarious and took it as a compliment, though I'm not sure it was meant as a one. It's in the eye of the beholder. To some I sound radical and extreme. To others my views don't go far enough. Certainly political feminists would see me as conformist.

What is alarming is how very basic ideas of "don't sexually objectify women in the media" / don't gender define children's toys are considered radical.

Brenslo · 09/11/2013 20:20

Patriarchal heteronormativity ....what a load of complete psychobabble.

My heterosexuality is nothing to do with socialisation or environmental patriarchal stereotyping. It's in the core of my being. I'm straight in the same way I'm female, white, left handed etc. I just am, always was, always will be. I was excited by boys from when I was about 5 from memory. Maybe earlier. I knew what I wanted even before I knew what I was going to do with it!

rosabud · 09/11/2013 20:55

Patriarchal heteronormativity ....what a load of complete psychobabble.

Really? Ironically, before I got to Brenslo's post, I was thinking this:

Patriarchal heteronormativity:

  1. Here is a term I have never heard of before - yet here I am sitting in my home, on a Saturday night, reading a website aimed at Mums sharing stuff about their everyday experiences (I know - I can't help being a little rock and roll on a Saturday night Smile ), and I have come across a term which seems a bit odd, a bit weird, a bit, you know, out there, but, hey, read on.....

  2. Hmm, really interesting explanation of what this means. Need to think about that......might have to get outside my comfort zone to consider it.......enjoying being challenged - after all, I could be watching Strictly or whatever else is on telly on a Saturday night these days......

  3. I love the internet and I love this board, the way it opens up my world from my own front room on a Saturday night...

  4. Oh what a shame, one poster is so closed minded that s/he is just going to dismiss it as complete psychobabble. Perhaps s/he should just go and watch X Factor instead.......

Bunnylion · 09/11/2013 20:55

"I think people tend to think about lesbianism as being the female quivalent to male homosexuality (because of course we think in male terms with male being the benchmark for everything else) [...] There doesn't have to be an erotic or sexual element."

Thanks beach here's yet another lightbulb moment for me on the FWR forum.

curlew thank you too, I'm under 30 and have just Amazoned "The Woman's Room".

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 20:57

Well that's jolly nice for you Brenslo. No need to dismiss other women's experiences and politics though surely?

Are you contesting that lesbianism has been marginalized throughout patriarchal history?!

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 21:00

You're welcome bunnylion.

The Women's Room is ace.

bigkidsdidit · 09/11/2013 21:15

I've just bought it too :)

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 09/11/2013 22:08

I was massively disappointed when I read The Women's Room, strapline "This book will change your life!". But I suspect I didn't have the life experience to fully understand it, I was a Spare Rib reading teenager at the time. I wonder if I still have it?

Grennie · 09/11/2013 23:11

Beach I think there does have to be sexual attraction to be a lesbian. Being incredibly close friends is not the same as being a lesbian.

OP posts:
GoshAnneGorilla · 09/11/2013 23:58

I think feminism absolutely needs to be a broad church, because women are such a diverse group of people, we need to fight in lots of different ways and areas to make progress.

So I respect radical and liberal feminism and think we need them and the other types of feminisms, I don't hold one type of feminism to be superior to others.

With regards to political lesbianism, I see why some women might embrace that as a way forward and I think it is important to question heteromormativity.

but

I generally believe that sexuality isn't a choice and for women to deny their sexual desires in the service of an ideology (however well-intentioned) doesn't sound like liberation to me.

Grennie · 10/11/2013 00:06

I am more concerned about the appropriation of lesbianism inherent in political lesbian theories

OP posts:
GoshAnneGorilla · 10/11/2013 01:32

Grennie - good point! I have heard that mentioned too.

Grennie · 10/11/2013 08:57

I think questioning heteronormativity is right. We are all taught to be het from our childhood. And I think it is helpful to individually examine if we are really Het.

I also think patriarchy devalues female friendship. We can have incredibly close female friendships and I think we need to value our female friends and prioritise them.

OP posts:
Brenslo · 10/11/2013 09:34

GoshAnneGorilla Sat 09-Nov-13 23:58:07
I generally believe that sexuality isn't a choice and for women to deny their sexual desires in the service of an ideology (however well-intentioned) doesn't sound like liberation to me.

100% this. Nail hit very firmly on head!

MadameLeBean · 10/11/2013 09:36

Hmm yes you do get the argument that political lesbianism somehow diminishes or erases "non choice" / "born that way" lesbianism but I personally don't believe that you can't have both as sexuality is more fluid than most of us have been conditioned into believing (especially men actually - believing that all gay men are born gay is reassuring to them if for example they have occasional gay feelings- as being male homosexual is seen as more taboo in patriarchy). I'm not denying that there are people who have never felt attracted to the opposite sex their whole life though.

Personally I feel strongly that if I was not with my male DP, I would choose to be with a woman or be single rather than try to navigate a compromise with a man who at the core has been raised to consider himself superior to women.

Grennie · 10/11/2013 10:57

Bean I am not arguing for born that way. I am happy however women become lesbians. What I am arguing against is the idea that sexual attraction is not necessary to be a lesbian. It is. And sex is pretty important to most lesbians

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 10/11/2013 11:14

I think it is about accepting that sexual desire is not the same thing to everybody and that socialization is a major influencing factor.

That is not to deny that many people experience their sexuality as innate. I don't think everybody does though.

I understand that many lesbians whose lesbianism is an innate sexual orientation take issue with political lesbianism and see it as an appropriation. I don't think the two need to compete or be in conflict with each other however. I'm a believer in lesbianism as a spectrum but I know and accept that many women disagree with me vehemently on that.

This article is interesting, the comments are worth a read too. I think there is a general tendency to view lesbianism through a male perspective prism of what sexuality and love are and women should be allowed to step out of that and develop our own definitions and identifies, and IMO, that is what political lesbianism is about.

anntagonist.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/lesbian-is-political-whether-it-is-or-not/

Grennie · 10/11/2013 11:27

Have you not noticed that it is women who were previously het telling lesbians that they are wrong about what lesbianism is?

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 10/11/2013 11:54

Well I guess that's one way to see it Grennie. Perhaps we need another term for women who have had het experiences and lived heteronormativity who have then gone on to no longer want het sexuality and heteronormativity and live more female focused lives.

Swipe left for the next trending thread