Help me with an argument - lapdancing/porn

[OvoLactoBaco]

I am due a full on debate with one of DP's friends about my zero tolerance of lap-dancing clubs (he is of the 'it's empowering/they love it/they're all law students making a fast buck' mind) and want to get my argument straight in my mind. I am happy with my stance on lapdancing, but how do those of you who don't tolerate lap dancing etc feel about the use of porn? The porn industry similarly supports sex slavery and degrades women doesn't it? But a zero tolerance on the use of porn seems much more unreasonable/unrealistic somehow. Any thoughts...?

Yy to Basil's post. I'm sure a poster saying "my DH has joined the BNP, I'm shocked and disgusted, what should I do?" would get fewer "stop being controlling" responses...

Get some Peas & Bovril down you ovo

Pies not peas**

This is why I should preview

Is that what you mean when you talk about women seeing men watching porn as a form of betrayal, Daswashere?

Yes and no, it seems like a spectrum of possible reactions to me. What you describe I would cast as 'I now realise I don’t understand my partner'. Further back on that line would be a more benign 'I now realise my partner is a bit odd'. Spend enough time in a relationship you get at least that far no matter what IMO.

But past the point you describe I think there is 'I now realise my partner devalues our relationship'. Its the same level as 'I now realise my partner devalues women/intimacy' That’s more the level I was talking about and I think its the more common one. There would be levels past that as well like 'I now realise my partner does not value me'- which is where I think discovering an extramarital affair would sit.

in answer to the op.

there is a rather brilliant bbc series called The Wrong Manz that was recently on.

In one episode Dawn French assumes James Cordon has been watching porn and she says

" what have i told you, the ladies are not happy, the ladies are not happy. They may look happy but the ladies are not happy"

I think that sums it up perfectly.

ovo I don't think many people are unaware of the realities of it, they know it goes on but choose to ignore it - I see it as the same as everyone knows smoking can cause cancer and kill you but millions of people still do it - lots of people do lots of things and completely ignore the trail of destruction these things leave behind for 101 different reasons.

im surprised by the amount of woman who say "my OH isn't interested in porn" - tbh I think your absolutely deluded if you think that - im sure there are men that don't use it but I think they are very few and far between and certainly not as many as the woman on here claim their OH doesnt. in all my friends and men folk I know I can only think of 1 who genuinely wouldn't watch porn. porn has a huge spectrum of genres and caters for nearly every fantasy you can, and sometimes cannot, think of - if your OH came across, not literally, something he liked and thought he would not be caught he would indulge in it a little, even if for 5 mins - its human nature to look at something that appeals to you.

Peggy, I know lots of men who don't use porn. Because it doesn't " appeal to them" . They are not foolish enough to believe that it " caters to their fantasy" , they know that women they see may be desperate, underage , abused, coerced, doing it to feed their or a partners habit or even trafficked. And the thought of participating in the abuse of women and girls doesn't make porn a good experience for them

There ARE some men out there who have a heart and a conscience you know, they don't all think with their

I like to think that men are just as capable of making informed, logical and conscientious decisions as women are.

There's no reason to think that if they knew the abuse and exploitation that goes hand in hand with the porn industry, all men would still give in to the urge to watch porn because of their animal instincts

This is the thing, so many people are quick to say that feminists hate men and make them out to be horrid little pervy creatures but actually it's misogyny that says men can't be decent people and that they are incapable of squashing base desires in order to act decently.

so now we have spoken about men who watch porn what about all the woman who watch/use porn? are they as bad as men? worse than men? do they think with their *** too? surely these woman also know of all the realities of it.

OP if your friend answered a lot of woman watch porn how would you respond? or is your argument only against men (because they are the biggest user) using porn or going to lap dancing clubs?

If you're against the consumption of porn or other industries which are harmful to women then you're against it full stop. I don't see why the gender of the consumer is relevant tbh.

You might be interested in reading female chauvinist pigs peggy

Personally I think that a lot of people bury their heads in the sand about the realities of the sex industry, and really ought to look into it more before paying into it.
But I have a very low opinion of anyone, male or female, who is fully aware of the exploitation and abuse that go on in such industries and still chooses to go to them to get their kicks.

so now we have spoken about men who watch porn what about all the woman who watch/use porn?

Women who like porn are a minority of porn consumers. I tried to look for meaningful statistics but frankly its a real mess where you can find whatever you want to find. So if you are interested in an honest picture rather than just an opinion its hard to clarify. I reached a personal view that for chosen irregular porn consumption no more than 20% would be women and for regular porn consumption no more than 10%. For habitual consumption (every day) it would probably be under 5%.

I have heard only a few women who were regular/habitual consumers of porn talk about their attitude to it. The majority I would class as coming from the view of 'I don't want reality to intrude on my porn experience.' ie they did not care who the actors were or if they were pretending/exploited or whatever. Similar attitudes allow us to be happy buying clothes because we choose to disconnect ourselves from the reality of the appalling conditions we suspect they are made under. Only a minority of women seemed concerned about 'ethical porn', for want of a better term. Of the minority concerned about it I suspect overall a higher proportion would be women than men, with men more interested in realism rather than ethics.

"The majority I would class as coming from the view of 'I don't want reality to intrude on my porn experience.'"

Herein lies the problem IMHO. Porn is fantasy and nobody using it wants any sort of reality to encorach on their 'enjoyment' of it. In that respect men are often able to compartmentalise their thoughts/feelings where I for one - and I suspect most women - would not be.

"It's selling an ideal that doesn't exist, giving men unrealistic views and expectations of women."

Isn't that the point, though? It's selling an unattainable ideal. If it sold the reality (sex is, after all, a messy business) then, well, it wouldn't sell at all, would it? We all like to fantasise about unattainable things (buying a condo on Maui is a particular favourite of mine). Porn caters to what is expected of men's sexual fantasies (compliant women who will do anything).

"For every "law student making a fast buck", there's also one doing it so she can pay her rent and feed her kids, and would rather do anything instead of shake her ass for a bunch of random men. For every woman who finds it empowering, there are countless others who hate it but have no choice."

Whilst valid, this argument is simply not powerful enough. There are billions of people around the globe who do jobs that they hate in order to keep a roof over their heads. In that respect the sex industry is nothing special. Now trafficking and outright sexual abuse - there's the differentiator.

"However, if I were living with a man I had met in my twenties, before my feminist ideas were as fully formed as they are now, with whom I'd had children, who had been my best friend and companion and lover for years, then I might feel the need to compromise and to tolerate a behaviour that I found disgusting and turned me off him."

This is by far the most interesting point I have read here - what happens if I change over time but he doesn't? Beacuse of feminist ideals should I cast him loose purely because I've changed even if I still love him for all the other reasons? That one is really tough.