Help me with an argument - lapdancing/porn

[OvoLactoBaco]

I am due a full on debate with one of DP's friends about my zero tolerance of lap-dancing clubs (he is of the 'it's empowering/they love it/they're all law students making a fast buck' mind) and want to get my argument straight in my mind. I am happy with my stance on lapdancing, but how do those of you who don't tolerate lap dancing etc feel about the use of porn? The porn industry similarly supports sex slavery and degrades women doesn't it? But a zero tolerance on the use of porn seems much more unreasonable/unrealistic somehow. Any thoughts...?

It's selling an ideal that doesn't exist, giving men unrealistic views and expectations of women. That's always my argument

For every "law student making a fast buck", there's also one doing it so she can pay her rent and feed her kids, and would rather do anything instead of shake her ass for a bunch of random men. For every woman who finds it empowering, there are countless others who hate it but have no choice.

It depends on whether you think that the pleasure some people get from making it outweighs the misery that others endure. And I have no idea how you quantify either.

Neither lap dancing or porn are empowering IMO.

If you wouldn't want your mother/sister/daughter/partner to do it as a career, why not ?

I suspect that the majority of women if offered another job with equal pay and free time outwith the sex industry would take it - why is that ?

There's nothing empowering about having to stand naked/half naked, dance etc in a room full of clothed men. You're automatically in a vulnerable position. There's nothing empowering about your co-star coming in your face or banging you as hard as he can. There's nothing empowering in knowing that you are simply wank fodder for some random stranger. There's nothing empowering about being some man's fantasy when he's never looked you in the eye nor could he describe your face. There's nothing empowering about words of praise involving the words hot, wet, tight, shaven, deep throat, anal etc etc.

It's not empowering simply because you take home a wage, otherwise all workers would be empowered.

It doesn't teach a woman that they have power over men, it teaches them that women are objects, that men are weak and pathetic, that women have no value as equal beings.

Nope, still can't see the empowered argument for either. And that's before you look deeper into the links with human slavery, money laundering, drugs, rape and murder. All for a wank

Zero tolerance of porn seems more unreasonable because of the pervasiveness of porn and the impossibility of banning it, given the Internet, rather than because the principle is any different.

Sorry, I think I may not have been clear. I am fine with my argument on why I am zero tolerance about lapdancing clubs etc, but I am wondering what I would say if someone said 'so would you leave your DP looking at porn'? It would seem unreasonable and unrealistic to say yes, but surely it is a similar industry to strip joints so why not?

Basically I think what I'm saying is if you would not stand for lapdancing would you stand for use of porn, and why?

Whether or not you'd leave your DP over them is not the test of your argument, OP.

You might be a Labour Party member but not leave your DH for voting Tory. Doesn't mean you don't have the courage of your political convictions.

Maybe, but it is something you see a lot on here - that lapdancing clubs would be a dealbreaker. Does that mean porn is too?

For some people an extramarital snog is a deal breaker, for others it isn't. You can't say what relationship deal breakers are for different people, and I don't see how it'll help your argument either way to make it personal like that.

Often lap dancing has involved a considerable amount of money spent and a more active decision to go to the club, along with being in the same physical space as a naked or near naked woman. Porn is one step more distant which is probably why people feel a bit differently about it. That's more the personal, emotional perspective.

But the intellectual/political arguments surrounding objectification, othering, lack of free choice for participants etc are similar.

I would approach the discussion with a very clear agenda to discuss men's motivations, not women's. I get impatient with all those discussions which instantly turn to the subject of the women. It's the one time I sympathise with Butwotaboutthemenz?

I always turn it on to the motivations of the men - why do you want to go and look at someone dancing for you/ being abused on screen so that you can have a hard on and why should I respect you for that?

I'm lucky in that I'm single and don't have the dilemma of whether to LTB. But I do know that nowadays, I would absolutely not choose to share my life with a man who wanks to porn. Women are entitled to draw whatever lines in the sand they want and that's one of mine and I don't think it's unreasonable and I don't care if anyone thinks it is.

However, if I were living with a man I had met in my twenties, before my feminist ideas were as fully formed as they are now, with whom I'd had children, who had been my best friend and companion and lover for years, then I might feel the need to compromise and to tolerate a behaviour that I found disgusting and turned me off him. All of us have things about ourselves that other people would despise or not respect or think were crap. How much those things bother you, depends on your level of socio-economic inter-dependence, emotional dependence, love, friendship, shared values and goals etc. and how much of those things you expect to share with a partner. How much your respect for that person is corroded as a result of that thing about him/ her also depends on how good you think they are in other respects and how important that thing is to you.

For me, I would not find a man who consumed porn or anything similar remotely attractive. It would be a complete deal breaker for me.

I don't think 0% on porn is unreasonable or unrealistic. Many (most?) people who consume porn are completely uneducated about the realities of it.

There is an excellent documentary which shows a young woman who sets off to LA to find fame and fortune in the porn industry, it starts of with her feeling sexy and empowered and gets darker and more oppressive as time progresses, ending in her being raped on camera and being coerced to go back on set after being gagged with a man's penis against her will, to relive the whole ordeal. The film crew, thankfully, come to their senses at this point and rescue her.

If this is the way women are treated in this industry when the perpetrators are fully aware that they are being filmed, it really makes you worry about what is happening to the women who don't have a camera crew in place to record evidence and rescue them from horrific situations.

Ch4 only aired it the once I believe and no longer have it in their archives. it's called hardcore, I'll see if I can find it.

here it is

Different people, different views bottom line is you are probably close to someone who will watch porn or go to a club simply because the amount of people spending money on the industries as customers. Estimated 10,000 women in the UK dancing in lap dancing bars and strip clubs, around 250 clubs in the UK so how many men are needed to be able to keep the clubs open? Estimates I have seen is around 2 million men which is a hell of a large chunk. Wondering how many Not My Nigels are completely misled?

See comments about people doing this to earn a living well certainly a lot better paid than a zero hour contract filling shelves. When will feminism realise rather than battering down the glass ceiling the first real step will come from pulling women up from the crap jobs out there that pay next to nothing?

Personal no surprise to people I have no issue with strip clubs and porn. Yes there are horror stories but there are thousands of women involved so why aren't there thousands or horror stories?

Sausageeggbacon, the OP didn't ask for an apologia about why women like to earn money as lapdancers.

She asked for help to focus her thoughts and arguments.

People in favour of lapdancing and porn always start talking about the women's choices to take the spotlight off the men.

And yes you're probably right, lots of Nigels go to strip clubs. We're under no obligation to respect them or have relationships with them

Sausage - firstly two wrongs don't make a right. Some of us can think the inherent misogyny of lapdancing clubs is bad and that zero hours contracts are a disgrace. You know, have two thoughts (or maybe even more) in our heads without our heads exploding. Might be hard to understand, but honestly we manage it.

And second, you're being disingenuous about the employment conditions of lapdancing clubs. As I understand it, a lot of lapdancing clubs work pretty much like zero hours contracts (or even worse) in that the dancers are treated as contractors who earn their own fees depending on how many men pay them to dance - and often they earn pitifully little.

How about we force the likes of Tescos to adhere to better standards so women have economic choices? So that they can keep roofs over their heads and feed their children within the mainstream economy. Do that, and that to my mind really would be empowerment. Who knows, quite a lot of the women doing "empowerfulising" lapdancing might be genuinely empowered to make a real choice, not a choice constrained to next to nothing by capitalism.

Has anyone else seen that documentary Ovary posted? Shocking, and the so called Hardcore character is probably the most gut-churning, vile human being I've ever had the displeasure of viewing.

I know LeBFG it's awful isn't it?!

I would hope that watching that doc would put anyone off watching porn but I think that's probably quite naive of me!

Well, I've always been a bit ambivalent about porn i.e. not for me and mine but if others want to do so well I suppose that's OK. I just didn't realise the blurry line of consent when it comes to pushy directors and vulnerable young women, which let's face are probably are large part of the industry. So it's changed my ideas about porn. But I'm probably quite naive about these things too!

That's really why I have been thinking about this - the porn industry is no less oppressive or exploitative than strip joints I don't think, but while I have always been very clear that lapdancing would = dealbreaker, it doesn't seem so easy to say about porn. I guess there is a greater 'spectrum' with porn, so while going to a strip club is a specific act, it's less clear where the lines are with porn - mens mags, internet pics, films, etc.

Not that DP has any apparent interest in either strip clubs or porn - I am just getting my viewpoint straight in my head (I like having arguments in my head - they are usually much more eloquent and successful than IRL!)

Maybe, but it is something you see a lot on here - that lapdancing clubs would be a dealbreaker. Does that mean porn is too?

Ovo, a deal-breaker is a deal-breaker whatever it is (sharing the same toothbrush will do it for me). But while both activities, commercial porn and lap-dancing, can be connected via exploitation of the actors; if you step out of that back-picture there is a basic observation that if men felt lap-dancing was in the same space as porn there would be multi-story strip clubs on every street corner.

The porn industry similarly supports sex slavery and degrades women doesn't it?

Indeed, its easy to be outraged about commercial porn isnt it? But when I see feminism and porn clash together it almost always just goes skin deep as the crystal-clear and obvious 'Commercial porn is evil because the porn industry is exploitive and projects unrealistic depictions of sex and the women fake enjoyment.' I agree 150%.

But what happens if I take commerce out of it for you? What if I ask my wife’s permission to email you one of our home-made movies? Would you require a one hour investigative documentary that would thoroughly convince you of the soundness of her psychology and motives? Illustrate she was not compelled nor deluded, threatened or at risk of poverty, etc, etc, etc, e-plubius-unum?

Porn is not simply a problem because the porn industry is a problem, porn is a problem because women more commonly regard it as a form of betrayal if their man views it. Waving the flag of the immorality of the porn industry is a big fat target that distracts from a more simple underlying question, what we expect of our partners and what they expect of us and the legitimacy of both views in a wider social context.

Dad, I'm not sure that's "skin deep" as a huge majority of the porn that is watched IS commercial porn. And the concerns are not just about faked enjoyment and lack of realism but that, as in the documentary, participants may be coerced.

If you, as a couple, want to swap home movies with your best friends and you know everyone well enough to know they are happy with being filmed, then the only consideration is whether your own view or your partner's is that looking at another person having sex is betrayal. But in most "porn watching" situations, it's commercial porn being used.

"porn is a problem because women more commonly regard it as a form of betrayal if their man views it."

Hmm. Interesting one. In a sense I agree with that, but we may not be talking about the same form of betrayal. I think I would feel it as a betrayal of commonsense, our life together, our values, principles, political affiliations etc. In the same way I would feel it a betrayal if I found out a DP had joined the EDL or BNP - I just wouldn't be able to get my head around the fact, that this man sees the world in a completely different way to the way I thought he'd seen the world and the way he had portrayed himself as seeing the world. It would be not so much an emotional and/ or sexual betrayal, it would be a philosophical/ intellectual betrayal. Is that what you mean when you talk about women seeing men watching porn as a form of betrayal, Daswashere?

www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/207358-full-time-mummy-brigade/page-13

Think this may be the Pie N Bovril hilarious trolls back, FYI.

If my DP watched porn or went to lap dancing clubs, I'd be less worried about some notion of " betrayal " and more worried about being with the kind of man who got off on watching women being abused and exploited

It's so easy to trivialise womens views, isn't it ? " No of course you're not worried about moral or ethical issues, you are just jealous that your DP is looking at other women "