Could I ask for views on a workplace proposal?

[GiveItYourBestFucker]

I've been asked to get involved in a project to raise the profile of women in my workplace.

I'm in 2 minds and I'd really welcome some views.

I'm uncomfortable with positive discrimination. Doesn't anyone making an excellent contribution deserve to be recognised? Maybe this is just about redressing the balance, though.

Also, I'm the only woman on my team. Making the "women's project" a "woman's project" doesn't sit well with me.

I may be overthinking this...

Apologies in advance if this is the wrong forum for my question.

More details needed! If you are the only female and the project is to raise women's profile you could call it The Giveityourbestfucker Project! Has a nice ring to it?

So what is the industry? What is the purpose? To get more women into the company or help those who are there?

Sorry about the vagueness! I'm having trouble with a new boss and I don't want to give any excuses to give me the boot. It was only mentioned on Friday in the course of quite a difficult meeting. The aim as I understand it would be to try and get our women more public recognition e.g. On news as experts.

Is this positive discrimination or is it highlighting an area where discrimination is occurring? Because it sounds like the latter to me. Why aren't more women worthy of media attention and recognition? Why are you so uncomfortable about promoting women?

The Women's Room do exactly this so you may want to speak to them if you want help/tips etc.

Thanks for that link, Scallops. Why am I uncomfortable promoting women is a difficult question. Partly, I think that there are other underrepresented groups who should also be promoted. Though the answer to that, I supppose, might be, why not at least start with women! I also feel that there is a conflict with the idea of putting forward the best person for the job regardless of gender.

Women aren't a minority, there is no logical reason for any company to have fewer than 50% of them. Or for the women in your company to need a higher profile if all things were equal. So it sounds like your company is currently discriminating against them and this is a good thing.

If you are also worried about other groups no one stopping you from appealing to women of varied ethnic backgrounds or women in the LGBTcommunity.

Thanks, Partridge

"I also feel that there is a conflict with the idea of putting forward the best person for the job regardless of gender."

Yes it does. But that's not actually what happens is it? Mostly the only person who gets put forward for the job is a male and the reason he is the best person for the job is because of the structural sexism in society and the workplace which have enabled him to be in a position where because of his gender, he is the best person for the job.

Men have had affirmative action for centuries. As soon as people start saying "actually, perhaps we should stop automatically advantaging white able-bodied middle class men and start looking at ways to ensure that other groups get a bite of the cherry" everyone starts screaming about unfairness.

Bugger that, it's not unfair, don't get into that mindset because if you do you won't be able to do this task and you'll be setting yourself up for failure and putting yourself in a vulnerable position re your boss.

I can relate to this one. My old work had a 'women's project' that didn't quite sit right with me. However, the reason for that is that I felt it made these issues into a bit of a ghetto. e.g talks on flexible working. When 90% of the senior men (being generous) were male, making flexible working a women's thing was never going to get far. It needed to be a broader change. Who knows, maybe it would have helped prevent quite so many divorces in the men too!

There was also 'women's networking', which came from a good place (building a support network) but again I felt that, given the odds, what we needed was better opportunities for the women to network. Not just network with the women.

Would that reflect any of your concerns?

If you are talking about, for example, raising the media profile of your women, I think that that is great.

Too often we talk about positive discrimination as if the current situation materialised out of thin air. It just is a fact, too few women, or whatever. So then, of course, pushing the women forward seems unfair. But if you see that men have been handed massive advantages all along the way just by being male (I won't list masses of example, but can if you want), all we are doing is tilting the balance a little bit the other way. Against that background - both parties get advantages, let's try and make sure that they balance out a bit- it just seems sensible.

We've got a women's group at work, which is great. I've learnt so much more about other parts of the company, and got to meet people I wouldn't in my normal role. We've been involved with HR in analysing the figures of where female employees are, and what could we do in the areas where they're fewest. We're involved with promoting STEM careers in local schools and universities (I work in IT) and we run sessions where people high up in the business talk about their career - mostly women, but not only women. We also run various development and mentoring sessions. Men are welcome - we have a man on the organising committee. I pass on information I've learnt to the rest of my department, so they all benefit (well, they do if they take notice - I suspect there's quite a bit of, "oh, one of eBear's women's mails," and it gets ignored, but that's their loss.) It's meant I'm much better informed about the business as a whole.

As I'm thinking about it, although many people speaking to us have mentioned how they juggle family and work, there's not been much talk about maternity leave or flexible working or anything - it's more about making sure people have the knowledge and tools to progress, with an emphasis on supporting women, but it is available to men if they want to get involved.

I'm the only woman in a department of over 30 - and it's been important to me to meet other women in the company, and see that it is possible to rise up through the ranks. It's been quite an eye-opener to me, realising that our department isn't like all the rest of the company. Different departments do have different sort of personalities.

We have some other employee groups, too, so it's not like the focus is only on women.

(I admit I probably wouldn't have got quite so involved if useless male manager hadn't tried to stop me... I'm a bit disappointed he backed down on that. I was looking forward to that battle, as he wouldn't have stood a chance. My motivations are not all entirely worthy!)

I've done a bit of work for a couple of companies recently around this. Will have to keep details vague but...

Good companies are trying to do something about the gender gap. Sometimes they do it well, other times it's patronising. It doesn't work unless it's fully and visibly supported by the board - for example, in one of the companies I talked to recently, their LGB 'champion' is a straight board member. In another company, they have recognised exactly where the glass ceiling is in their organisation and are doing a lot of work to find out exactly what is stopping women progressing up to the very top levels, as well as putting in place various schemes to help change things. Again, all supported at the very top levels with money and budgets - not just 'ask the three most successful women in the team to sort out the women problem.' Proper action.

Also, I'm halfway through Delusions of Gender and nodding vehemently about what it says about creating cultures which recognise achievement and achievers. Raising the profile of the work successful women do in your organisation is a really powerful way of having other women go 'it's OK to be successful here.' Birds of a feather flock together - where women don't see successful women they either don't strive, leave, or seek sideways moves rather than upwards (massive generalisation, am tired, there will always be exceptions to this before all the female CEOs jump in )

Finally, positive discrimination isn't legal in the UK (where I assume you are). If your company's scheme is well thought out, all it will be looking to do is raise profile and therefore number of candidates. It may also seek to address some hiring behaviours (for example, if a role involves a lot of travel, does a hirer automatically assume a woman won't be up for it, thus 'doing her a favour' by not encouraging her to apply).

Finally finally I too hate the idea that the women have to fix everything but as the only woman in your team you're already a role model... use your power for good

ask the three most successful women in the team to sort out the women problem

In our case it's asked the least successful part-time-working woman to sort out the women problem. Apparently I'm the best person for the job because I fucking "believe in it".

I'm a little bit angry.

Thanks, everyone. These are great posts and I am nodding at all of them! penguins and lord copper, I think I am a bit angry about the potential ghettoising, but I also take basils point that positive action is not necessarily unfairness. Thanks also for the book mention, Wilson - I will look for that, it sounds interesting. ebear, your project sounds very inspiring. It makes me feel like mine could be the same.

ebear, your project sounds very inspiring.

Mostly it is. However, at the end of today, I did have my male director telling me how it was all unnecessary, and he didn't agree with any of it, and he'd usually prefer to employ men, because of the risk of pregnancy with women. (He was over here, because our senior executive president or whatever whizzy job title she has at those heights was also over here, and she's brilliant. I had to rush off to another meeting, and she saw me later as I was walking back in, and said thank you for the work you do with the women's association, and I'm a little bit in love with her just now!)

And he thinks it's unnecessary how, when there are men with that sort of attitude? I am really quite angry with him, and am waiting with my response till I am a little calmer.