Opinions on my conversation with DP please, re job quotas

[MumblingMummy]

OK, Im feeling a bit upset tonight following a 'lively' discussion with DP earlier about job quotas. He commented on a newspaper article and he said 'Im sick of this PC rubbish, trying to get women and black people jobs just for the sake of quotas. If theyre any good theyll get the job on merit.'
Now, I happen to agree with quotas as without them, I dont see how minorities are ever going to achieve equality of opportunity. His response? Life is tough! I mentioned white male privilage and the wider argument but he just raised his voice and refused to see that things need to change. I think Im just disappointed in him and have a sneaking suspicion that he's not the man I thought he was.

"I HAVE entered into the discussion, its just that I take the absolutely ridiculous stance that folks should get jobs on merit, rather than gender......"

But you steadfastly refuse to address the point made many times now, that people get jobs on gender all the time when they are men.

When men with no knowledge of feminism say they're in favour of equality, what they usually mean is that they're in favour of women being allowed to enter space designed by men for men, from which women have been excluded for centuries and which barely tolerates them currently, but that that space should not be changed or adapted to suit the needs of women, but stay exactly the same in suiting the needs only of men and refusing to acknowledge that women's lives are different from men and true equality is to build the space according to the needs of both halves of the workforce, not just one.

Whereas feminists want public space including the workplace to be designed for men and women. That means ditching the long hours culture, embracing flexible working and encouraging men to stop dumping their caring and domestic responsibilities on women and then calling that equality.

Sorry that was really long and wordy and boring. To put it more succinctly, when men who aren't feminist allies talk about equality, they mean women should be allowed to slot into a man-shaped hole and if they don't fit, then that's not because the hole has been designed to keep them out and ensure men fit through easily, but because they make mystifying choices that mean they don't fit through the whole.

If by balanced you mean preserving the status quo at all costs

Ooops, refresh fail. YY Basil.

BasilF read my posts. you're looking at them with your man bashing glasses on.

I have REPEATEDLY said that it is wrong for ANYONE to get a job purely on their gender.

maybe an exception is as a clothes model, or do you suggest that only women are employed to do that too?

I agree the long hours culture is miserable and I don't want to work those hours EITHER.

and Buffy, yes I'm perfectly happy to come in here and debate with you, even when you suggest illegal practices that are EXACTLY the same as the practices that brought about the problem in the first place, all be it from the other direction.

I love you Buffy

Calm down for fucks sake and stop shouting. You've made your point. Others disagree. Are you going to keep shouting until we agree?

"I have REPEATEDLY said that it is wrong for ANYONE to get a job purely on their gender."

And you have REPEATEDLY failed to acknowledge that a workplace designed by white able-bodied men for white able-bodied men inevitably means that white able-bodied men do get jobs purely on their gender. This is particularly the case as they go up the career ladder where because of the way other white able-bodied men organised the workplace, the only candidates for the job are white able bodied men.

Did I miss the memo about changing NN's, ah well. Basil, I called you angry in earlier posts for which I apologise as you are clearly passionate and I misread the tone. Re-reading these posts has given me quite a pause for thought - I'm now a SAHD whose DW is a Senior Executive and in all the places I've worked I can honestly say I have never seen any of the anti anybody practice's described so eloquently here. I have to admit I naively thought my experience to be the norm but am beginning to realise I was wrong.

So........ you can't think of a way of distinguishing between a woman or a man with the same qualifications when choosing a candidate for a job, but because I and a couple of others suggested that, because the hypothetical woman might have taken 3 years out in order to have babies, this shouldn't count against her, and that's man-hating?

Hmmmmm.

The reason I haven't acknowledged it is because I haven't experienced it.

I've worked in video games retail. Female District manager.

Restaurants (good ones mind) one with a female owner, one with a very equal husband & wife team as owners.

in teaching, with female Head Teachers, Vice Principals, and senior management (as well as blokes too.) oh yeah, a female lead inspector on our last inspection too.

maybe it's just that Northern Ireland is so much more advanced and equal than the backward Island off our east coast.......

and Buffy, what is so difficult to understand?

it's wrong to discriminate.

either way.

It's like talking to a brick wall.

IT'S WRONG, IT'S WRONG I TELLS YA.

How tedious.

Right.

See I haven't experienced anti black racism, being as how I'm white an' all.

But if a black person tells me it exists, I'm not going to tell him/ her that I don't believe it because it's never happened to meeeeeeeee.

Thanks for the apology Radagast.

Thing is, I don't think these "anti xxx practices" can be described as such.

It's not that people are deliberately, consciously going out of their way to keep black people, women, disabled people etc. out of the best jobs. It's just that the way the system - not just work, but home too - is set up, is that unless you are absolutely obsessively determined to change things, you will end up with the status quo simply because changing your whole mindset and ways of working and systems and practices in order to level the playing field and try and fit that workplace/ home for the needs of everyone in it not just the people from the traditionally advantaged groups, is really, really hard work. And the people who have to lead that work, are from the group that have a vested interest in not changing it and they don't notice there's anything wrong because they've never experienced it...